blank'/> Liberally Lean From The Land Of Dairy Queen: I'm Torn

11.07.2007

I'm Torn


A Senator bears down on Kenneth Copeland ministries wanting the organization to pretty much open the books to him.

Sheesh. I hate Robert Tiltons of the world, but I also think government should butt out of any religious organizations inner workings.

(Image of Copeland's place in southern Wise County.)

63 comments:

House of R & R said...

Are you kidding Barry? The government needs to dive deep into all religious organizations because most of them are scams.

aprilexplorer said...

OK, here we go again ... is there not a "separation" of church and state?!? Rather than Congress diving into the financial dealings of religious organizations, I believe it is up to the congregations to hold each church/pastor accountable for their own financial dealings. I for one, would have a hard time listening to justification for a private jetway in my pastor's backyard.

Anonymous said...

Here is the problem as reported by WFAA(?) last year, the minister solicited funds for a jet to "do God's work" the jets flight plans were pulled and showed God's work included a couple of trips near where him and his son like to hunt in south texas, and trips near ski resorts in Colorado during ski season. So stay out of the inner workings but do not use the church as a front for your personal slush fund for funding your hightone life style.

Anonymous said...

Amen, R&R - I think B's just trying to stir the shiate again, as usual. They need to add quite a few others to the list that need investigating as well.

Anonymous said...

These guys run tax free organizations yet live like CEOs of major oil companies. They also get rich by exploiting the spiritual beliefs of their members. I say rake these fiends over the coals.

Although I must admit Bennie Hinn does make me laugh when he knocks all those people down.

Anonymous said...

Please send these morons MORE money. With the rising cost of jet fuel and hair spray, they're going to need every spare dime. Geez, do their congregations not hold them accountable?

mzchief said...

You better believe the government SHOULD treat religions like ANY other corporations. Otherwise, Bally Total Fitness, that preaches from the "Big Book of Muscles and Fitness" rather than the "Big Book of Myths and Fables" should be exempt from government intervention and taxation. After all, Bally has HUGE buildings, membership fees, counsellors and a credo SUPPOSEDLY based upon self improvement just like MOST mainstream RELIGIONS.

Religions are nothing more than corporations that are FLUSH with untraceable CASH. The Holy See has its own ARMY, BANK, GOVERNMENT and is NOT compelled to operate under the jurisdiction of Italian law.

Anonymous said...

You People are idiots.
Stomp down idiots.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

That means if somebody wants to donate to the church of Bally Total Fitness, they can.

Anonymous said...

I have always heard that only a religious person is capable of hypocrisy, but here we have the same group that is the first to cry foul when a prayer is spoken in a school or a nativity is on the lawn of a courthouse asking the government to cross that sacred line of seperation. Now who is the hypocrite? I have no use for religion being used to fleece the well intentioned, but are we saying that the government has the ethical reputation and our trust to be the ones to police this group who, at worst is of the same reputation. In other words, this is probably the first time I have agreed with you Barry. I'm torn.

Anonymous said...

i know you all would love to see copeland go down hard, but theyve been going after him since the 70's and still havnt found anything. maybe there is nothing, i dont know. but why dont liberals bitch when politions take trips on our money.

Anonymous said...

Wait my computer says 11:08 am as my posting time. Now if im posting after mzchief how in the he// did she post at 11:23 am

Anonymous said...

Will members of his “church” please step forward and defend him? This makes me a little sad. Think of all the good that could have been done with the money.

The government DOES NOT have the right to interfere with religious institutions, but the government DOES have the right to insure those religious institutions are operating appropriately as religious institutions. They appear to have pierced the church veil since they are operating for-profit businesses.

Anonymous said...

Well, religions have been getting involved in Government for a few years now so turn about is fair play doncha think. Actually, I think religion is for the most part, big bidness and should not be tax exempt, that is, if they want to say they are doing their fair share. But wait, then the Government would have even more money to piss away. What was I thinking.

Anonymous said...

Let them operate lavishly. Stay out of their business. The ones giving the money should be the ones to raise a fuss, but they don't. So they must be OK with it, because they certainly could stop giving if they chose to. The government looking into this is no different than if they decided to look into why a baseball player should get paid $300+ million as AROD is asking. Hey, if there are enough dumb fans that will allow themselves to be fleeced for tickets and shirts and $10 hot dogs, more power to AROD.

Anonymous said...

SHUT UP, MZCHIEF!

Anonymous said...

If parishioners want to give money to Kenneth Copeland’s church, and Kenneth Copeland wants to take that money and buy jets, ranches, and a Rolls Royce, then I don’t care. The only one being harmed are the parishioners who blindly give him money.

However, if Kenneth Copeland takes that money and establishes for-profit businesses that enrich his related parties and avoids taxes because of their “religious” affiliation, then I have a problem. I do care because this harms all American tax payers.

Anonymous said...

No big news on Copeland and Hinn it's been going on for years. They need to bust them and move on. Move on to Congressional spending. The guy's and girls in Wahington make a ton of money. They have free medical, don't worry about the IRS and whatever salary they leave Washington with is what they will get for the rest of their life. What a joke!! Wonder why social security and health care has never been taken care of, and will never be taken care of? They don't need it. Out of sight, out of mind. It does not and will not effect them so they could care less. Oh yes, it's good discussion during election season but that's all it is. If you screw your congregation out of money we will prosecute you. If we screw the American public out of their money well, we'll just justify it. Wake Up America!! Al speaks of Global Warming and flies around in a Jet to get his Oscar and George is fighting terrorism in the mid-east while his family owns the majority of Pennzoil. Geez! I need a nap!

Crud Bonemeal said...

I say "Amen" to 11:47 post. That is the bottom line. Once the government starts sticking its nose in organized religion, no faith or belief will be safe from Washington's tentacles constantly grabbing and digging deeper into our personal lives.

This Senator's crusade sounds real good right out of the box, but what exactly is he trying to do? He is trying to do what the government always does under the guise of protecting us from ourselves. Whether it's gambling, smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, or scrutinizing churches, the government will always have people who react to the cry of outraged people.
"How dare these religious leaders have so much money and live so high on the hog!"
Most of their money comes from voluntary donations. They may take that money and invest it wisely to make more money. But there will always be people with more money than sense who are willing to believe and donate even more.

The creed of the politician, also known as the first rule of wizardry is:
People will believe a lie because they want it to be true or because they are afraid that it is true. Those individuals who make a living by selling a bill of goods to the American public depend on that the principle being consistent over time.
I personally would like to see this particular crusade by the Senator shut down as quickly as possible. The people who founded this nation were fleeing from religious persecution in England.
We should be free to worship as each of us sees fit and to handle our money as we see fit. If someone is stupid enough to keep giving money to a person who obviously has more than his family can ever spend as opposed to helping someone in real need, so be it. America stands for liberty and freedom, even if it is the freedom to be stupid and ignorant.

Anonymous said...

These guys are doing god's work. They deserve everything they get for the souls they have saved.

Anonymous said...

This is clearly God's plan.

Anonymous said...

I think that tax exempt should still be held accountable and should still have to report their earnings. That is after all what they are. I think there should be a set amount per member that a church would be tax exempt for. Its not like it is being given back to the comunity.

Anonymous said...

Correct it is the people sending in the money that should be the one's raising the red flags. The sad thing is alot of the tv evangilist prey on the people who are really hurting, lonely or sick. So if you send them $50 they will pray over your letter and heal you. They are building there treasures here on earth, not in heaven.

House of R & R said...

Funny. Some people are more concerned about the government sticking it's nose into someone else's business rather than being concerned that there is organized crime being committed against millions of innocent people.

Crud Bonemeal said...

So if we let the government do this, what is the criteria for deciding which faith system is good and which is bad? Do we establish a national religion? Oh wait, that's what they had in England. That's what they have in the middle east. You will never want the government dictating your religious or spiritual beliefs. If the government is going to pick on religions, I have some higher on my list for kicking out of the country before the televangelists.

Anonymous said...

When the government starts qualifying what is and isn't a church then it violates the first ammendment.

**It is IMPOSSIBLE for the government to LEGALLY determine what is and isn't a church**

-- no matter how dishonest you think the leaders of that church may be.

(state sponsored church anyone?)
Hometown Baptist Church -
"A quality certified church by the government of the United States of America."
Hello China!

Anonymous said...

Gawd,wouldn't it be nice if we could all be exempt from taxes and not have to report income to the state and the Government would keep their big fat whiskey noses out of our affairs or somethin.

The Devil said...

There is a sucker born every minute, so I think there should be a sucker tax. Don't go after Copeland, he is just taking advantage of the suckers. Place a sales tax on every dollar an individual donates above and beyond 10% of their income. Some of you will say how can this be a sales tax....easy, these folks are buying bullshit so we should tax it. Individuals that donate 20% of their income or more should be required to undergo psychological evaluation and be required to attend special education classes where they will be deprogrammed.

House of R & R said...

Crud,
Hun, this has nothing to do with the government dictating your religious or spiritual beliefs. It has to do with possible criminal activity....fraud. If a religious sector is acting in full regards to the law we have no problem. If not, then the government has the right to do something about it. The people who have donated money have a right to know, don't you think?

Anonymous said...

Folks, please be careful about painting all churches with such a broad paint brush. There are churches, like my church here in west Texas, that do a lot of good for a lot of people - and the tithes and offerings help keep the lights on! Yes, our pastor lives in a nice little house and drives a nice car, but he doesn't live lavishly. Plus, our church sponsors missionaries all over the world, and also has funds set aside to help local people in need. We're also actively involved in our community
It's just a place with imperfect people trying to find God's will in our lives, who love others and try to love God with all their hearts. And while there may be some money grabbers out there, not all who call themselves disciples of Christ are hypocrites, thieves, etc.

mzchief said...

To 12:26...
UNLIKE a church, Arod PAYS taxes on his INCOME.
UNLIKE a religion, the idiot franchise that pays Arod PAYS taxes on their INCOME.
UNLIKE a church when it purchases ANYTHING, the fans who pay $10.00 for a hot dog have PAYED taxes on the money they are spending to support the franchise that pays Arod.
Incidentally, are hot dogs REALLY $10.00 at the ball park? If so, baseball fans are NUTZ!

I do NOT believe the government should have any MORE right to poke around in the operations of religions than the government has to poke around in the operations of ANY other corporation in the United States. However, religions should PAY taxes on their INCOME like EVERY other corporation in the United States.

Personally, I APPRECIATE churches fleecing the members of their flock. I APPRECIATE churches providing a place for sheep to congregate because it keeps the sheep off the streets and away from SANE people.

People should be permitted and even encouraged to throw their money away in ANY way they want.

House of R & R said...

Barry you didn't include the 4.1 million dollar home that's connected to the property.

Denney Crane said...

If you haven't already figured it out, our government is the largest organized crime syndicate in the world. If what our government has been doing over the last 50 years isn't criminal, I don't know what is...

In this example of a senator getting in the middle of a church’s business; a government employee wants to make a name for himself so he can move up the political ladder. He attacks and often ruins the life of a high profile person in the name of protecting someone. This is a job for the IRS, not the US Senator, but that won’t get his name in the paper.

The true hypocrisy! Look at all the campaign contribution scandals in the last 20 years and then take a good look at the penalties. Look at how long the investigations take. If you’re part of the syndicate, you don’t pay the same penalty.

Uh…it’s not over yet…

If that’s not enough, they will file suit and take it from you…look at what happened to the tobacco companies. Then…

If you make more money than they think you should, they raise your taxes. Tobacco, gasoline, alcohol, phone bill… Watch what they do to the oil companies. Oh, they’re not finished…

If you die wealthy, they want half of it…you know, split it with your kids.

But this is all for our protection and safety. We pay taxes for protection. Think about what happens if you don’t pay your taxes. The time is long gone when our government put the needs of the people before the lust for money and power.

It’s all about the money. The protection machine must be fed and the machinists must be properly compensated…or else!

Anonymous said...

God will strike thee down Mzchief.

Anonymous said...

Maybe they will find out why airplanes consistently fly over Copeland's land, drop packages, and never land? It's been going on for years. It should be called the Copeland Compound as heavily guarded as it is.

Anonymous said...

Read one time where someone said that TV evangelist were the Pro Wrestlers of Religion.

Also read one time several years ago that Billy Graham kept about 70,000 dollars a year out of all that money he got, giving the bulk away to charities and those in need, and felt guilty about keeping this much. Copeie or Hinnie probably could not make it on a paltry 70 grand. If one is about to try to enter the gates of heaven, who would be the best spiritual advisor to guide the way? Graham, Hinn, or Copeland? Of course if big bucks is the way to buy the ticket to get in, well, the choice is simple. One could wonder if Hinn, Copeland, Tilton, Ect., feel guilty about the flock milking they do, or maybe their blind followers like to have their titties squeezed real hard. Baaah Baaaaaah.

Copeland has armed guards patrolling his, I mean, God's property, and if you step somewhere you are not suppose to, they are on you. This info coming from a contractor that has done work on the property. What would Jesus do? Have armed guards on patrol. After sinners, I suppose.

Anonymous said...

When Tilton got busted for the fake holy water scam and the tear stained letters to him that caused permanent damage to his wrinkled temples as he was crying over them and rubbing them on his face resulting in having to have them surgically removed by having a "face lift", a religous fanatic friend of mine was upset. Was he upset because Tilton was exposed as the Fraud he is? No, he was upset because someone went undercover under false pretenses to expose Tilton. Go figure.

Anonymous said...

Don't be trying to go down Boatclub Road on Sunday morning. The traffic is horrible with Copeland Church Goers trying hard to get there so they can give out their cash first. Those nuts will damn near run over ya, and close tailgating is the norm until the Copeland Compound gate is reached. Past the gate either direction, normal traffic.

Anonymous said...

There is a separation of Church and State. There is not a separation of Scam and State.

Anonymous said...

The broad brush cliche is getting old. As Donald "Duck" Dunn said in the original "Blues Brothers" movie: "If the shit fits, wear it."

Anonymous said...

Kenneth Copeland is committing prayer fraud over the federal airways by telling people he will pray for them. The followers send their prayer requests along with cash and he never sees the letter! That is fraud.

I'm sure he and his wife make the decisions on how to spend the tax free money. A jet, an 18,000 luxury home, tennis courts.

If his house is located in Wise County, how much local school taxes are we getting on it or is it not taxed because it is owned by the church.

He sells snake oil!

mzchief said...

To 6:32...
God does NOT strike down ANYONE.
Most RELIGIONS teach that God engages in HUMAN emotions such as vengeance, jealousy, anger, love and forgiveness. I believe that God is a guide to ALL who are WILLING to follow.

You go ahead and FEAR your God. I will continue to CHERISH and FOLLOW my God, especially since following God has worked out REALLY well for ME.

Anonymous said...

The Copeland Compound is my neighbor here on Eagle Mountain Lake. They have been very good neighbors to have.

Once when my boat broke down the nice armed security guard came down with a long pole and pushed me off the property. I was not allowed out of the boat.

But he did offer me one phone call for help. It wasnt like I was going to ask to use one of the SIX boats he had in his boat dock.

Did I mention his boat dock house is bigger than my families home? I am very lucky to have such a nice neighbor. Thank you Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Sorry to inform you of this MzGuided, but God can do whatever the heck He wants to do!

Crud Bonemeal said...

To the House of R & R: You seem very sweet, and you and I could probably have a very nice discussion about this. Here is the problem with what the Senator is doing.
Under the Constitution the way it has historically been interpretted by the Supremes, ANY sanctioning or penalizing or benefiting of a church in any form or fashion by any level of government violates the first amendment freedom. Since State, local, and federal governments are so closely intertwined by the transfering of funds through appropriations, grants, and loans, any action that can be construed as possibly influencing the practice or existence of any religion violates that freedom. I happen to believe that alot of religions take money from people under fraudulent circumstances; therefore, if we are going to investigate churches with the possibility of criminal charges or government sanctions, what will be the criteria for deciding who gets investigated? And, as far as religion or spirituality is concerned, who is going to decide what the national truth about God is? The governemt should not have any control over religious freedoms or the exercise of religion. Also, the government should not have to think for us. It should be up to us to be informed and educated.

Crud Bonemeal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
House of R & R said...

Ok....then who would you suggest investigate these individuals? The IRS?

Anonymous said...

So what say we go and get an honest church to investigate the crooked church and then let us know what they find or somethin.

Annie Jokely said...

Gee, why would the books need to be kept private? hmmmmm. What ya so afraid of?

Crud Bonemeal said...

The IRS is a direct arm of the federal government. That is why churches are tax exempt. Taxation, audits, fees, and penalties are some of the fed's favorite sanctions against people and organizations. I don't believe that anyone can be penalized for preaching or teaching a certain religious belief or tenet. The only question is whether or not the organization is a church or a religion. If the feds can get around that issue, they can attack the organization in any way they see fit. As far as this particular investigation goes (and this is based only on what I have heard or read in the media), there is no way they can frame this inquisition to get around the roadblocks already established by Supreme Court decision.

rpm said...

Crud, what you don't seem to understand is this is not government telling a church how to pray. It's government wanting to know how they spent the money.

Huge difference.

Anonymous said...

Copeland has armed guards for protection and security. Why would he not rely on God for protection? Don't trust God to do a good enough job? God will protect him unless it's God's will for Copeland not to be protected. Employing armed guards could be viewed that ol' Kenneth does not have faith in God for protection of his safety, planes, boats, valuables, money, cars, etc. Does he not trust God except to use God for money gathering?

the spelling nazi said...

Hey Bonehead!! You were bagging on someone about not being able to spell their way through a post ~ you best check yo'self before you wreck yo'self!! I found at least 3 spelling errors in your last post to r & r.

I needn't say any more. My point is proven.

You brought it on yourself there, genius.

Crud Bonemeal said...

You guys are missing the point. There is no difference. They are talking about fraud which includes how they get their money and how they spend or allocate their money. Churches cannot exist without money, so they are all going to solicit it and use it. There will always be representations made regarding salvation of their souls or hiring staff or building improvement funds or whatever. So the government gets to tell churches how to allocate their funds? Aside from the fact that the government can barely manage their own affairs, isn't telling people how to use their money a control device? This is such a slippery slope. If the government opens a crack big enough for a fingernail, the entire protection of the separation of church and state comes unraveled so easily. You don't want that. If your church or evangelist or whoever is not using your donations in the way you feel is appropriate, then stop giving them your money or change churches. Be your own master. Don't look to the government to make these decisions for you. If people stop giving money to crooked religious organizations, they would dry up. The problem is that people will always be looking for the easy solution to attaining salvation. As long as there are people like that, there will always be unscrupulous individuals willing to exploit that for personal gain. In this country, churches are constitutionally protected from government intrusion, and they should be. What will you do when some righteous church has a disgruntled member who complains to the authorities about some expenditure the church made? Do the American taxpayers want to fund a new government agency charged with overseeing financial dealings of all of the churches operating in the United States? Shall we have would-be new pastors take some kind of a government devised morality test before they are allowed to take up collections and use the money? The government should never exercise any control over any part of the business of a church or religious organization.

Annie Jokely said...

What if a 'religous' organization is suspected of funding terrorist groups like jihadists... or abortion clinic bombers... or something of that nature? Oh, keep the government out of the books... my ass.

Crud Bonemeal said...

The individuals committing the crimes can be prosecuted, but the church itself can't be punished. At least, that is how I understand it. If the government could run all of those terrorist supporting churches out of the country, I would be in favor of running every Muslem or Islamic follower out of the country. Do you want to shut down the Catholic Church because of the IRA? Our government wants us to believe that all followers of Islam are not blood thirsty murderers. I think that also violates the first amendment. The government is coming out and actually propping that religion up in the eyes of the public. Many of our public universities (who receive federal funds) are supporting this religion openly and openly opposing Christianity. What I am against is happening, but it is not right.

the spelling nazi said...

Oops! It's Muslim, not Muslem!! tsktsk.

People who live in glass houses...

Crud Bonemeal said...

okay, okay, spelling nazi. You got me. I took a cheap shot. I admit it. I will refrain from such behavior in the future. I realize the sometimes we are typing quickly on these things and accidents happen. mea culpa.

Anonymous said...

I think the Capitalization Nazi is gonna be on your ass next, Crud. After that, be looking out for the bandwidth police, because you have filled this blog with a lot of worthless shiate defending a situation that even you truly can't believe is right. Come on, give it up already. These guys are scammers, hiding under the cloak of religion, taking advantage of sheeple - this needs to stop. It should probably start stopping with the FCC not allowing these hooligans to purchase broadcasting licenses and building huge towers to transmit such garbage.

the former spelling nazi said...

The Spelling Nazi accepts your terms of truce. All is peaceful again on the blog...

Anonymous said...

Ive called there for help they ask me full name&adress&phone but these people dont give out there last names or emails some of afraid of giving out
There full info because they probably work for the nsa,the workers are force to sign a contracts to secure there cover up&scams so the public wouldn no,i have nothing too hide its not right at all,plus all tv preachers wanting control over all parts of government&wealth &dictate our lives no way,i will rebel

Anonymous said...

Tithing is under the old law why live under,it was nailed too the cross stop giving too churches that pushes it,they lie

Anonymous said...

There into the shepherding movement they try run there followers lives,hes a snake in the grass not too be trusted he contrary what he preach look uphow. Cults work.com

Anonymous said...

They live at the expense of others&lie