blank'/> Liberally Lean From The Land Of Dairy Queen: I Wonder What All You Get For That Much Money?

5.23.2006

I Wonder What All You Get For That Much Money?

From the Update: BIG PLANS FOR BIG CHURCH — Grace Fellowship Church announced it will build a 30,000 square foot church at an estimated cost of $4.2 million in Paradise. It expects the project to be completed in September 2007. Pastor B.J. Rutledge said the church, which was founded in June 2003, has 1,000 members. The "fellowship" churches seem to be a new phenomenon and time will tell if they will last. They refuse to be branded (don't call 'em Methodist or Baptist) - and you can't sing a song without guitars and drums. And I don't know if they have "official positions" on issues such as alcohol, abortion, and the like.

129 comments:

Anonymous said...

Well that's about $4,000 per member, and if you discount kids in that number, that's about $12,000 to $15,000 per member family. All to build a building. Somehow I think that if you really do believe in God, then you would also honestly believe that a nice shade tree is just as good a spot to worship as a $4 million building; maybe better as it leaves money available to actually act upon your faith.

m&m said...

Why so many churches? Does it matter which church you belong to? Are all churches true or are some true and some false or is one true and the rest false?

Anonymous said...

There is only one, Jesus Christ said (I build my church) Look at Rom. 16:16 The churche's of Christ salute you. He can only be married to one or that would be adultery. Doesnt most women wear their husbands name? Isnt the church the bride of Christ? Does your body have a different name than your head, in other word's you only have one name for both. Can only be one , and that one goes strictly by God's word, no adding to or takeing away Rev.22:18+19.

Pancho said...

Why are you looking on this blog for answers about church's and God. You mean to tell me you believe everything you read on the blog. Look to the book of Life. God's Word! You can count on it!

Anonymous said...

im not a member of grace fellowship, but im amazed at how critical people r of it, i think it would be good if you try to remember the last time someone got save in your church, and see whats working,but then i always thought church was about saving the lost.

Anonymous said...

It depends on what plan of salvation their being saved by,a false teaching or by God's word. Sure I could come up with a new way, that would bring in alot of people and alot could be so called saved, but unless it is by God's word it won't work. Not every one that saith unto me Lord, LOrd shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Anonymous said...

It takes a lot of money to run a church and usually it is the wealthy folks who kick in the money. Ordinary folks (likely the bulk) of this group are paying bills and don't have extra.

But I am grateful for another church where God's word is expressed and people are there to hear that word to give them hope in these days we are living in.

Though that kind of mega church doesn't appeal to me personally, I truly, truly wish them well.

And God's blessings on that they do.

Anonymous said...

building such churches provides job security for consruction crews. god knows what he is doing.

m&m said...

Anon 11:02 am I'm having some difficulty deciphering what you wrote. But part of what I think I got was that the church should bear his name. If that is true, then most christian churches would be eliminated, because most do not contain the name of Jesus Christ in their name.

Your last sentence is a cop-out, because they all claim to go strictly by The Bible. Also, you misinterpreted Rev. 22:18-19. John used the greek word 'biblion' for book, referring only to his book of Revelation, not the entire Bible. The Bible did not exist when he wrote that and besides there were books written after he wrote Revelations.

Pancho: Did I say I believe everything on this blog? I threw out some rhetorical questions, don't get your panties in a wad over it. You say look to the Bible, again that's a cop-out. They all claim to strictly go by the Bible, so does that mean they are all true?

Anonymous said...

11:02am Does this mean it is ok to change God's word where ever we like, and they do change it in revalation too. Yes most organizations claiming to go by God's word, and are not, will be eliminated. If you wanted people to come, wouldnt you tell them, yes, we go strictly by the bible, even though you don't. I will check out the Greek on the word, book; thank you, it does help to get that imformation when studdying God's word. So many different gosples, yet there is only one, and its that gosplle we are called unto salvation.

Anonymous said...

m&m Notice in vrs.18 of Rev. it say's the prophecy of this book, in vrs.19, it say's the book of this prophecy meaning all of God's word. In vrs. 20 tell's who testified of those things, being Christ, and I do hope he comes quickly.

Anonymous said...

anon 11:27
thats sounds pretty cheap, when you add up what your schools spend per kid per yr.

Anonymous said...

Why would they build that church in Paradise or outside of the town? Has anyone actually looked at the cost difference between building inside a city that could provide utilities. Where do you get a septic system that can handle 1000 people or more a week and how many wells will it take to provide the water. I also know that when I moved from town to the country my insurance increased almost 30%. The response time from the fire dept. or something like that is suppose to be the reason.

I just figured they bought the land in order to keep everyone off their back. How much longer could they suck the life out of the schools they have used until something was said.

I do believe in God but I don't attend Church on a weekly basis and I do know the Bible states that churches are suppose to be temporary place for schools and the opposite in the time of need. But not when they are trying to raise the money for a $4 million building.

I know they are paying the schools but it is not sufficient enough to have an extra 1000 people a week. The sum is barely more than the taxes on my house.

m&m said...

Rev. 22:18-19 only refers to the Book of Revelations, not the entire Bible or God's word. Let me show you something.
1. The Bible didn't become the Bible until the 15th century and the Bible is not in chronological order. So, John couldn't refer to the whole Bible when it didn't exist and there were other books written after Revelations, so according to you they should be eliminated.
2. Moses wrote a similar passage in Deut. 4:2. So, was he referring to the book of Deut. itself or the whole Bible as you say. If the whole Bible then everything after Deut. should not be regarded as scripture.
3. The Bible doesn't contain all of God's word and it tells us so. The Bible mentions eleven books of scripture that were regarded as scripture at the time, but we don't have them now. In 1 Cor. 5:9, Paul mentions a previous epistle to the Corinthian saints and in Col. 4:16 he mentions an epistle to the church at Laodicea. We don't have either of these epistles. Matthew mentions in 2:23 that Jesus grew up in Nazareth that he might be known as a Nazarene to fulfill prophecy, but we don't have that prophecy in the Old Testament.
So, all of this shows the Bible does not contain all that God has revealed to man, so it's possible that additional scripture may come along and be discovered.

John was not talking about the whole Bible, only his book of Revelations.

Anonymous said...

Beg to differ, You go ahead and change whatever you like, and dont just be a hearer of the word but a doer. Are you actuslly saying it is ok to add a few and take away a few things out of God's word? And yes, there is alot of things that have been revealed to man from God in the old law and in the new we will never Know about, but, He the Holy Spirit gave revalation to all the writers of the word in the bible and we have what God wants us to have, or is God not smart enough to know that someone had written another book that was supposed to be in the bible but it got lost, ups God forgot about it i guess, no Jude 3 delivered once for all. I do believe with all my heart God would have fixed it if it had been broken, dont you? And there were alot more letters written to various places not in the new testament, because God knew what HE was doing, HE dosent make mistakes. John was talking about revalation and all of God's word. Again, do you think it's ok to change it in any form or fashion?

Anonymous said...

m&m Do you think it's ok for women to speak in public whorship?

Anonymous said...

Correction - Grace Fellowship is a Baptist church. You have to be baptized in order to become a member. They are just not a member of a convention,

Anonymous said...

It is common knowledge that Grace Fellowship Church was organized from a split from First Baptist Church in Bridgeport and a prominent couple from FBC helped in the formation of the new church. The "split" formed the initial membership. Where did the other folks come from? Other churches? I've heard some say they've had members leave their church and go to the "exciting" and "awesome" new group out in Paradise. I've also heard that some of them tired of that and drifted back to their mainline church.

More power to this group if they are gathering folks to their fold who are "out there" with no church home. And if this church is really impacting kids with the gospel, how can any of us criticize this?

As with all things, we need to give this new group some time. When the new wears off and the humdrum of reality sets in, that will be the test.

I wish them good luck and feel that God will bless this group if they are truly seeking His will.

Anonymous said...

Tax them! Jesus, Inc.

Anonymous said...

Careful, Barry! You might tread lightly on criticizing the Church. You may pay for that in the future! God bless!

Anonymous said...

I would warn all of you trying to argue doctrine and that sort of thing that God said not to judge each other. "Why worry about a speck in your brother's eye when you have a mote in your own eye?"
If someone is saved according to the Scriptures, then the Holy Spirit can lead them to whatever church tyey need to be in.
I think a few of us need to put our "Holy Spirit Helper" shirts back in the closet.

Anonymous said...

So amazing how devout Bible believers can get facts so wrong and put emphasis on so much that DOES NOT MATTER to God. So many have no concept of even the simplest facts, yet are so darn stubborn about their cluelessness. For example, that the "King James" version is itself a translation. And that the books of the Bible do not flow like a novel nor were they written in sequence. Or that in Genesis, right there in black and white it is so crystal clear that Adam was not the first man God created. (First he created primitive males and females; as evolution would suggest also. And it answers the question of who Cain married). And God love the Christian who for all the world believes that when the tornado slammed their house that God "saved" them...when in fact it was God that decided to smash their house....Oh my GAWD.

Anonymous said...

Observation: Most of the religious zealots responding to this blog post cannot spell or use proper grammar. It makes me wonder how well they can really interpret the Bibble. I love it when Barry posts something that gets your bowels in an uproar. You are all sooooooooo funny!

Anonymous said...

Lighten up people, Barry was stating the facts. All this sniping certainly doesn't make me want to join a congregation. Shame on most of you posters for running off a potential "member" of the flock!

fluff said...

And how they seem to get off track of the subject of the blog. A mere observation of the building of a large church in Paradise turns into a discussion of religious doctrine that benefits no one. We all know m&m's religious views and you can almost pick out which anon replies over and over......and they aren't converting anyone. Why don't they just arrange to contact each other and debate over the phone or anywhere but here.

Anonymous said...

Wouldn't that money be better spent on the homeless and poor people in this country?

Anonymous said...

5:49 - that really is the point of the church anyway - evangelism.

Nowadays, we put SO much emphasis on praise and worship, how upbeat the music is, how many we can pack in the church, how big we can build a church - while people are going to hell in a handbasket.

Will God ask me what denomination I joined or what I did to help somebody on this earth when I meet Him face to face?

Mother Teresa just wandered the streets of Calcutta dressed in raggedy old clothes.

Quite a contrast to our meager evangelistic efforts.

m&m said...

Anon 2:19 How can you beg to differ? It's blatantly obvious John was not referring to all the word of God, only his word in Revelations. I don't believe we can take away or manipulate what we have, even though history shows it has been messed with. Even all the different translations of the Bible manipulate the meaning. The best example is the Johannine Comma, as it is called, which is 1 John 5:7-8. This has been proven to be added to the manuscripts to bring support to the Trinity doctrine. Rev. 13:18 which talks about the number of the beast is 666 in some and 616 in other copies of the manuscripts. Examples go on and on.
What I'm talking about, is if additional scripture was found tomorrow, letters of Paul etc, we should add them to the Bible as scripture.

Anon 2:36 Yes, because that was not a religious code in NT times it was a cultural code of acceptance.

Anonymous said...

Hopefully, somebody with the Messenger board will start a "religious discussion" thread on their board.

How did we get from the proposed church in Paradise to all of this interpretation of the Scriptures?

Makes sense why churches split.

Lots of sense.

Or nonsense. Whatever.

:-)

m&m said...

Anon 4:22 Since when did discussing points of doctrine be interpreted as judging each other. My JUDGEMENT is that your definition of what judging is, is rather strange and odd.

Anonymous said...

m&m, give it up! You're giving folks a headache.

Anonymous said...

First to respond to anom 1:49 as for the septic system the paradise isd must have figured that one out as all of the school buildings are on septic.My only concern is that the small volunteer fire dept can not handle such a strain on their resources to provide service to such a large facility even with the help of decatur and bridgeport in the case of fire it would be to late for these department to get there before their is major fire damage, dont get me wrong the volunteer firefighters in paradise do a great job but their equipment is so out dated it's not even safe to use, the fire engine they have is second hand from bridgeport and is 30 years old and only carries 2 firefighters.so to any church members or officials reading this post this may be something to consider in the near future.

Anonymous said...

M&M I rest on the word of God. All scripture is given by inspiration from the Holy Spirit. I believe I will stick to that.

Pancho said...

M&M I wasn't all wadded up. I just stick to God's Word. I look to the Bible for his Word. His Word is not a cop-out as you put it. It the way to gaining knowledge. The Word says "My people perish for the lack of knowledge." I'm living proof Once I got into God's, IT CHANGED EVERYTHING! So long as I put Him 1st. All good things come to me. It doesn't matter what man says to me or about me.What matters is what God says.He wants us to Love one another and not be in conflict.Did not mean to offend you and if I did, I sincerely apoligize. You have a God filled Day and be joyous in the LORD!! He will strengthen us!

Anonymous said...

Pancho, you are such an inspiration to all! Sounds like you have a good heart. I, too am a Christian and follow God's word, so I want to thank you for standing up and speaking His word. Sometimes we all need to hear that to get us thru' the day. There is nothing better than reading a scripture to make the Spirit move thru' you. Thank you again Pancho and have a blessed day too!!!

Anonymous said...

$4,000,000 will buy a lot of space used several times a week unless the church follows up with their plans for a school. Bridgeport ISD and Paradise ISD provided a place of worship for the group while their membership grew.

Now, perhaps the schools will lose their students to the group. What were they thinking?

Anonymous said...

Grace Fellowship = Cult
The new wave of evangelical Christians = Folks who want to be entertained and be 'high on Christ'. Any church that needs to be in the center of attention is not a church of God.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll keep my Christian beliefs and be open and respectful of all faiths. I have a hard time though wrapping my arms around this new 'evangelical Christian' movement as well as your Fundamentalists who use the Bible as a weapon instead of for God's purpose.

Anonymous said...

And,I too am sorry if I affended anyone . Please forgive, thank's.
Itis sharper than any two edged sword, it is a weapon, agianst the evil's of this world.

Anonymous said...

Wow!.....amen to 10:15!!

Anonymous said...

Hey m&m, you're right about there being possible textual additions to manuscripts of scripture. But most biblical scholars would not concede anything about a "comma." Much of these "developments" come from the systematic reading of scripture through the eyes of the historical critical method which has proven faulty.(cf. Bruce Metzger) I would also point you to Metzger, the leader of all scholarly debate on text criticism in discussion of the addition of scripture to the canon. I would also submit that the canon could be open if other documents were found which would meet the criterion of the Coucil of Nicea as well as most of the early church fathers. Still, we must concede that they would have had availability and knowledge of all the crucial documents of their time and that of the early church.
On this whole discussion of Grace, let me say that whether or not something is right or of God is often judged by the ultimate success or failure of the project. If things are being done of God, they will succeed, if not, then they won't. (See Acts and the tests of false vs. true prophets in the O.T.) Furthermore, as Christians we are called not to judge or gossip for this very reason. The reason being that we are not God, and it also adds fuel to the fire of those unbelievers who are outside of the faith. Far be it from me to keep them there through my tongue or keyboard. That being said, the discussion should be ended in such a public forum and left to those closer to the situation than we are.

All for the glory of God and Christ

Anonymous said...

This is all coming from the church that handed out a 2 lt. of Dr. Pepper to the needy middle class of Bridgeport...

Anonymous said...

are you talking about success or failure on earth or in eternity? A ton of things are successful on earth that aren't from God.

Anonymous said...

yeah, i noticed that after i wrote it. it's a broad generalization. I would mean to say its ultimate, eternal success. That's why you have to leave it to Him.

butterfinger said...

you guys are morans. the mormon church is successful and they are all going to hell. JESUS RULES and joseph smith drools.

Anonymous said...

That's why we have to judge men by what they teach, and know the Holy scriptyres to be able to avoid them as in rom.16:17 Christ reins over his kingdom today and forever.

Anonymous said...

you can always depend on politics and religion to really stir people's emotions :)

Anonymous said...

Does it bother anyone to hear someone speak about Christ?

Anonymous said...

Remember...we never talk about politics or religion. Didn't I teach you that?

Anonymous said...

Barry mentioned what Grace Fellowship church beliefs are.

They have a website. Sounds like Baptist to me.

That'll work.

Anonymous said...

I can talk about Christ all I want, he owes me ten bucks.

Anonymous said...

He doesn't owe a thing. THINK,THINK,THINK---uhhh---blasphemy on your part, maybe, I don't know. READ YOUR -SCRATCH THAT- READ THE BIBLE.

Anonymous said...

I do have a bible, thank you very much. It makes an excellent doorstop. There are much better mythology books out there for reading.

bigcatdaddy said...

52 Comments.....WOW

m&m said...

Pancho: I didn't say the Bible was a copout, I said your statement turn to the Bible was a copout. One of the reasons for all the churches is because of the Bible. It is not clear on a lot of subjects and doctrines and so you end up with thousands of interpretations which results in thousands of different churces. They all can't be true. Here's an example of a real doctrinal dilemma:

Let's say you have two churches. Church A and Church B. Let's say in church A, the preacher claims to be called by God, claims to be inspired and interpreting the scriptures by the spirit to teach his church. And let's say he teaches his church that baptism is essential to gain entrance into the kingdom of God.

Now, church B has a preacher who claims to be called by God, claims to be inspired and interpreting the scriptures by the spirit to teach his church. And let's say he teaches his church that baptism is not essential to enter into the kingdom of God.

Now, the question. Who is right? They both can't be right. Entrance into the kingdom of God is on the line here. Let's say in this scenario that God does require baptism. Then that means the preacher in church B is not interpreting scripture by the spirit and he is literally leading his congregation down a path to hell instead of heaven.

Now that's just one ordinance and principle in Christs' church. It doesn't even start to cover the mode of baptism (immersion, sprinkling, pouring etc.), at what age one should be baptized, who can do the baptizing etc.

So, there's a lot of stuff involved here and I hear people all the time just blow it off like it's no big deal and they say things like, it doesn't matter what church you belong to as long as you believe in Christ. Well I don't buy it and I think there's more to it than that. The example above, I think, shows that.

Butterfinger & Anon 4:22 As I said before, discussing points of doctrine is not judging. That's like saying two people discussing politics is judging or two people discussing anything is judging. That's just plain stupid. Now what butterfinger did was unrighteous judging. Butterfinger is now 'god',evidently, and has condemned the entire mormon church to hell. That is unrighteous judging.

Anonymous said...

M&M Church A is right, because God's word say's it's so. Mark 16:16 Very good point's you made.
It does matter what church you go to, and who's name it wear's. Christ paid dearly for it.

Pancho said...

M&M I can not see how turning to God's Word would be a cop-out. It has helped me so much to form a better life for myself & others. I put my faith in God, not in man. I've come closer to God thru his Word and not man's. Of course our earthly substance separates us from God if we let it. So I stay in His knowledge to keep my Heavenly substance norished! And though I disagree with some. I still have the Love of Christ for all of You!
God Be with you all! Be in His peace.

Anonymous said...

GOD WILL JUDGE ALL MEN

AMEN

Metzger said...

Hey M&M, you're good at this stuff. But let's see if we can turn this discussion for the betterment of us both.
First of all, any church that would rely solely on the teaching of its head pastor and not on the Spirit of the believers and the community of believers is a faulty church. In the earliest practices of the NT we find that people were taugh to judge teaching through the Holy Spirit corporately.
Secondly, you are right that not all principles such as mode and effect of baptism, are supposedly set out in scripture. That is why debate is so needed. Most Christians, however, have not taken the time to study the Bible in order to engage in such debates.
Appeals to scripture are not a cop-out. The Bible is very clear on the essential doctrines such as the creed of Nicea holds. So perhaps it is not that an appeal to Sola Scriptura is so wrong, but it is the way in which most people approach the Bible.
I believe this is one of the problems stemming from the Reformation. While a lot of good was achieved, people became more and more dependent upon one teacher or preacher while forgetting the past and, in the process, some elements of Orthodoxy that were essential.
I also think that in your writing you have confused the kingdom of God with heaven which is another point of conflict. Entrance into heaven is only one part of the Biblical teaching of the Kingdom of God.
And no denomination would hold that baptism, be it infant or otherwise is the essential and/or only requirement for salvation. Again, look to the community of believers past and present and I think that you will see what is inside and outside the bounds of Orthodoxy according to Scripture and those that have been, unfortunately, wrong.
It is important b/c salvation is at stake. It is of the greatest importance.

comment4U said...

Bigcat--I'm SO with you....58...made me look...

Anonymous said...

Someone just give me scripture and verse, please, how to be saved?

Anonymous said...

It's not about who is right and who is wrong. It's about diversity. Not everyone is going to agree. It has nothing to do with what church you go to or if you even go at all. It is about what is in your heart PERIOD. To be saved...accept Jesus Christ in your HEART. God is not trying to trick people into hell. DIVERSITY is KEY. We serve a VERY DIVERSE GOD! How can there be just one right church. That would make God a deceitful God and he is NOT that. How can anyone say out of the whole entire world...out of all the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc, etc,....only the so and so church is going to heaven. That's utterly ridiculous. God is MUCH bigger than that.

Pancho said...

Here is the scripture you asked for 2:09 PM
Romans 10:9-10 (New International Version)
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

God Bless You!!

Anonymous said...

What about Act's 2:38, and Mark 16:16 1Peter 3:21. Shouldnt you give these consideration?

m&m said...

Pancho: Quit telling people false teachings. It is wrong for you to tell people that all they have to do to be saved is beleive in and confess Jesus. If that were true the entire Bible is unnecessary and all we would need is that one verse you quoted.

According to the Bible, we must do the following to go to heaven:
Endure faithful to the end:Matt. 10:22;24:13;Mark 13:13

Obey the commandments: Matt. 19:17; Luke 18:20; Mark 10:19

Forsake all: Matt. 19:27-29; Mark 10:28-30; Luke 18:28-30

Be Baptized: Mark 16:16; John 3:3-5

Believe: Mark 16:16; Luke 8:12; Acts 16:30-31; Rom. 10:9; John 3:36; 3:15-16; 5:24; 6:40&47

Pray: Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13

Have Hope: Rom. 8:24

Confess sin: 10:9

Love God and Neighbor: Luke 10:25-28

Study the scriptures: John 5:39

Partake of the sacrament: John 6:54

Do good works: Rom. 2:6-7; John 6:27; Matt. 25:1-13; 25:14-30; 25:31-46; John 4:36; Gal. 6:7-9; James 1:22,25,27

All of these are passages that state a requirement in order to be saved or gain eternal life.

Anonymous said...

THANK YOU M&M, AND ALOT MORE TO GO WITH THAT!

mzchief said...

Congratulations to the Paradise church, they must be doing something right. (What corporation wouldn't like to be able to build a $4.2 million complex?) However, they have a LONG way to go to catch up to the Catholics when it comes to building high priced "houses of worship."

What is it with Christians and Muslims that twists their knickers when religion is mentioned and they realize everyone does not emulate their individual interpretation of the intent of the Bible/Qur'an?

May God/Allāh/Elōah/Jehovah/The Great Spirit/The Creator bless and have mercy on one and all and grant tolerance to ALL zealots.

Anonymous said...

What impresses me about church members who remain faithful to their church split after split after split is their perseverence to God and His Kingdom, rather than to the "whims" of the time.

The humble little church with no money to advertise, or enough room to pack em' in, may be doing mighty acts in the name of Christ.

Can we really define prosperity?

It lies in humility.

To me.

Pancho said...

M&M It is written as it is written. These are not false teachings. These scriptures are God's Word not my words. Romans 10: 9-10 not only tells you how to aquire salvation. The rest of God's Word tells you how to live a righteous life after you've been saved. It is written. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.I reverence my God enough to believe every single Word that is written in the Holy Bible. As I said before, What you think of me or what you say about me has no bearing. It is what God saids in the entire Bible that changes everything. God Bless you M&M.Jesus is Lord!!

bigcatdaddy said...

68 comments....YOU GUYS ARE KILLING ME!!! MMMWWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!

Anonymous said...

Betcha nothing gives Barry a greater thrill than beginning a religious thread. He's likely keeping these posting goodies for a future book.

Should be a bestseller!

:)

Anonymous said...

I agree with anon 4:03 - Barry should be careful. Bridgeport and Paradise Baptists may be tuning into this blog.

:-)

Anonymous said...

pancho- believing and confessing, is not all you must repent and be baptzed to be saved, God's word.

m&m said...

Pancho: I'm afraid I have some bad news for you. Your diagnosis is a severe case of tunnel vision. You are only focusing on that one verse in Romans. What about the examples of other verses I previously gave you that also indicate requirements of the Bible in order to be saved. You are saying a person only has to believe and confess to be saved. I am saying you have to believe and confess and all those other things I mentioned before to be saved. The Bible agrees with me, but your tunnel vision does not allow you to see the other things the Lord requires of us to be saved.

May the Lord heal you quickly of this horrible disease you are suffering from.

Anonymous said...

Yes, mm, and may the Lord heal us from the religious fanatics on this board.

Anonymous said...

pancho, Give me the answer from God's word, how you enter into Christ? I found the answer in Gal.3:27. This put's you in the body, the church, the kingdom, and also Peter said on the day of pentecost it's for the remission of sin's, and in 1 pet.3:21 he say's it saves us just like Jesus said in Mark 16:16. In act's 22:16 Ananias told paul to arise and be baptized and WASH AWAY THY SIN'S. You cannot be saved out of Christ, and you cant't be saved without baptism, belief repentance confession, and a willing obediance for life.

Metzger said...

M&M, your method of interpreting scripture is no less tunneled than what you claim Pancho's to be. You are taking verses apart, out of context, and simply patterning them to your own liking.
Your first statement that you must endure to the end to be saved is somewhat debated. It is not debated as a means to salvation, it is debated as whether or not it is a requirement afterwards, such as in the Hebrews passages about apostasy. Jesus's statment in Matthew 10:22 is somewhat ambiguous. First of all, the word for salvation in Greek is a passive verb which means that it is not something that you can do, but is done to you. Secondly, this statement could also refer to martyrdom or enduring persecution. Those who pay the final price should not fear for they will reap their final reward.(Mt. 10:21-23) Read the entire paragraph and passage. Mt. 24:23 could possibly take the meaning you wish it but, as I have previously stated, the notion of apostasy is debated with other passages. Interesting how the meaning to you is so clear.
Another contention you took up was that one had to "Obey the commands" to be saved. In all three instances you simply cite the story of the Rich Young Ruler. Once again, it appears that this verse it taken from the context of the story in all three gospels. In Matthew this is an example of Christ using somewhat of a Socratic method to show the Rich Young Ruler the uselessness of the commands. He states instead that he must give up his lifestyle and follow him. This shocking statement that keeping the commands was not enough leads the disciples to ask, "Who can be saved?"(Mt. 25) Jesus answers them with the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard which, again, enforces the point the the Kingdom of Heaven is not dependent on what you do.
In Luke, the same thing is re-iterated. Keeping the commands can not do the job. Only following after Christ can allow one to enter into the kingdom. And again, the disciples ask who can be saved. The story of the rich young ruler is framed in Luke by the story of the children coming to Christ and ends with the story of Jesus healing the blind man. In fact, this is a writing device called an inclusio in which the point lies in observing all three things. The author shows that you must recieve the kingdom of God "like a little child" (Lk. 18:17) and then ends with Christ telling the Blind man that "your faith has healed you."(Lk. 42). It is interesting how a blind man and children entered in humility and faith while the commands did not do the trick for the rich young ruler. Luke definitely drives this point home.
I could go on and refute other point, but this is somewhat tiring.
And your logic on judgment seems faulty as well. For you say that debating points of doctrine is not judging, yet you judge pancho and tell call his teaching "false." Yet it has been proven that at least one point of your soteriological requirments is false. Pancho has used his scripture in accordance with the context in which it was written.

Anonymous said...

7:36 you do not have to be baptized to be saved. Baptism is an act of obedience. It is a outside symbol of an inner change. To be saved all you have to do is admit that you are a sinner, believe that Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, and confess your sins to Him and you too will be saved!

Anonymous said...

12:18 If the rich young ruler hadn't have kept one of those commandment's what would have Jesus said to him, remember, their still under the old law at this time. And faith WITHOUT WORK'S is dead, being alone. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandment's John 14:15 does that meen all of them?

Anonymous said...

12:34 You are very wrong, Im sorry, JESUS CHRIST himself said HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS (NOTE AND IS) SHALL BE SAVED-SAVED SAVED.Mark 16:16 What were thosse men asking Peter on the day of pentecost, in Act's2:37 they were asking how to be saved, how to be forgiven, Peter had just recieved the Holy Spirit said repent and be BAPTIZED every one of you --IN-- THE NAME OF jesus christ FOR THE (WHAT) REMISSION of SIN"S. HELLO

Anonymous said...

12:47 I am sorry but you are the one that is wrong. You do not have to be baptized to go to Heaven.

Anonymous said...

Then your argument is with the author himself wich told us to be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. Mat. 28:19. I am in Christ by the way God told me to do it - Baptism- I have put on Christ -Baptism- He washed away my sin's -Baptism, and God's word say's those who are in Christ are the saved, Thank you and please study more on being in Christ.

Anonymous said...

You didn't answer my question's, Thank's again

ladybug76234 said...

metzger...you totally contradict yourslef. How can you follow Christ without following and observing his teachings in every day life?

Just out of curiosity, just what do you believe the purpose of all of Christ's parables and teachings are if we are not expected to follow his teachings and apply them to our own lives? Was he just flapping his gums? Using up air? You would think if he was our savior and redeemer sent to this earth by our Father in Heaven there is purpose and meaning in what he says. He would not say "this do in remembrance of me" if he didnt mean it. But I could be wrong, you know. Commandments could just be for making a good story. Something to listen to on sunday morning.

You must be one of those types that I went to high school with (yes, that was here in Decatur.) You know the type....the "saved" bunch that would party hard on a friday or saturday getting totally drunk and causing the latest scandal and then get forgiven again on sunday so they were the "good kids" all week long at school. They sure left an impression on me.

I never post on this blog...I usually just read it for entertainment. I decided that one needed a response though.

Let the ripping commence.

ladybug76234 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

2:30 I believe that you need to study more! Baptism is not a requirement in the plan of salvation.

Admit, Believe, Confess

Anonymous said...

With all this arguing about Scripture, is it any wonder many people are so turned off by such things and stay away from any church?

Sheesh!

Pancho said...

M&M I do not have any Horrible disease for as a Christian I am not subject to healing. I am subject to walking in continuous abiding health. My Lord took on all my diseases and sins. I stand firm on Proverbs 4:20-23. God's Word! You can count on it. It is how man interpets it that voids it's power.
God's Word is there in front of you, all you have to do is believe and receive. God Bless You!!

m&m said...

Metzger:
On your 1st point: The concept of 'enduring to the end' is based on the fact that we are led to believe by what Christ said, that if an individual is unable to endure to the end of their mortal life or the end of their trial or tribulation being faithful, that they will not be a candidate for heaven. Thus Christ made it a requirement by making such a statement.

2nd point: I listed commandments and good works separately, even though they can be considered the same. But the story of the rich young man stands out so well in refuting doctrine like Pancho is teaching. You see if Pancho's teaching is true, that all we have to do is believe and confess, then when Jesus was asked by the man what he needed to do to go to heaven, Jesus should have answered the man with 'believe and confess'. So, if Pancho's teaching is true, Jesus is a liar, because that is not what Jesus told the young man. He told him to keep the commandments. And when he told Jesus he had kept them, Jesus issued an additional command, sell all you have and come follow me. And he was unable to do that, because he was rich. So, Jesus challenged him with an additional 'work' that he was unable to do.

3rd point: I think Jesus would want us to judge teachings, based on the scriptures, as to whether they are true or not. Otherwise we have people who follow with blind faith, like Jim Jones and David Koresh followers. I did not judge Pancho, the man, but his teachings.

m&m said...

Pancho: So, according to your 4:30 entry, all Christians are not subject to any disease or any sin. So, they are unable to commit sin or is it that anything they do the rest of their life is forgiven no matter what it is? Wow, how nice it would be if it were that easy, and no repentance necessary?

And a new litmus test to determine if someone is a real Christian or a pseudo-Christian. If anyone gets a cold, the flu, arthritis, cancer, heart disease, or just any disease, guess what? According to Pancho they are a pseudo-Christian, because real Christians can't get sick and are not subject to disease. Earth to Pancho, come in Pancho, are you there.

bigcatdaddy said...

89....Let's go for 100!!!

Yippee!!!!!

Anonymous said...

LETS ALL SAVE OUR PREACHING TO ONE ANOTHER FOR WED. NIGHTS AND SUNDAY MORNINGS. EVERY ONE HAS THERE BELIEFS SO BELEIVE THEM IN IN YOUR OWN CHURCH NOT ON THE BLOG!!!!!
AS FOR THE NEW CHURCH WHICH IS WHAT THIS BLOG IS ABOUT I THINK ALL OF THE GREAT SOUTHERN BAPTIST IN WISE COUNTY ARE AFFRAID THE NEW CHURCH WILL CORRUPT THE CHRISTIANS OF WISE COUNTY BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING NEW AND DIFFERENT AND MOST PEOPLE IN WISE COUNTY ARE AGAINST CHANGE OF ANY KIND THIS IS 2006 NO 1950 SO LETS GET WITH THE TIMES PEOPLE.

Anonymous said...

Why don't those of you who are so condeming and afraid( of churches who refuse to put God in a box and try different things) just go to Paradise and check them out.

Anonymous said...

Why do you want to change what God has set in order, was his church not good enough, so let's just start us our(note our) own church. Everyone argues about everything under the sun, this is the best discussion one could have. Better than tallking about baby killer's and such. Oh and baptism does save, the bible tell's me so.

Anonymous said...

Why can't the message be the same,(Jesus) but shared in a different way.

Anonymous said...

Christ said even the gates of hell can't prevail against HIS church, uh the one that will forever be with him in heaven

Anonymous said...

If the message were the same, there would only be one title for his church, and it would stick to his gosple and not change. The name makes a difference, for there is no other name under heaven given among men where by we must be saved. Rom. 16:16 the churches of Christ salute you. There you have it.

Anonymous said...

Neither is there salvation in in in any other Act's 4:12 and one must be in Christ to be saved, please answer this question, how does one get in Christ? Hint look at Gal 3:27

Pancho said...

I'm living a real peaceful life since I have sought God throught his word. I thank God for the gift of Discerning His Word.It is an awesome gift. I know where I stand in the Lord. I read into His Word as a student and not a critic. Yes, I walk in divine health just as Jesus did. He gave me authority and dominion over sin & disease. I live in the Joy of the Lord and will continue to obey every word which God said. I have submitted my Spirit,Body and Soul to God and in doing so I will have life abundant!
God Bless You All! May the Love of God Be with You Always!

ladybug76234 said...

ok anon 8:26...we get it. The Church of Christ believes that they are the only correct church because their name is written in scripture. That is exactly the closed mindedness I have encountered with their members before. Some modern day man decided to use that phrase and create a church. I GET IT. If you want to get technical, there are other churches out there with names that can be found in scripture passages too. Does that make them correct too?

Anonymous said...

It sure does, but only if they go by the word of God and do not change his wkord's or add to them. This is the reason Paul said there should be no division's, we should be one mind in the Lord. Quit tampering with his word, just stay with what it say's and DO it. Jesus said teach them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded, so we teach and that's what we are trying to do. Thanks

Anonymous said...

Answer 8:29s question

m&m said...

Hey everybody, Pancho is going to live forever as a mortal. Wow, he'll be the very first human to never die.

Metzger said...

Ladybug, I'm sorry that you encountered the "saved" bunch. In fact, I have never been drunk, I'm still a virgin, and I did (and still do) live out my faith wherever I go. Tell me how I contradicted myself by arguing the passages of scripture, not by falsely accusing me.
M&M: I totally agree with you about judging everything we hear. That's one thing I appreciate sincerely about your posts. And thanks for arguing scripture and not attacking me personally which isn't using logic and critical thinking at all. I hope to continue discussing these issue with you all in the future.

Pancho said...

M&M You don't get it. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. You insult your own intelligence by even thinking that I will live forever as a mortal.I am already dead to this world. I will live forever in Christ Jesus and with this I will wish you God's Blessings. Adios!

Metzger said...

Ladybug, I think I see what you're getting at. In those passages we were discussing salvation. No one would deny that you are to follow the commands of scripture. I'm completely with you that all of scripture is to be taken seriously. The point is whether or not those commands lead to salvation. Sorry if that confused you.

Anonymous said...

I think in South Park Season 4 Episode 11, they give us the answer to this never ending debate...enjoy!!

[Hell, waiting area. Many souls are there, wondering where they are, and why.]
Stephen: Where, where am I?
Man: Where are we?
Man 2: No doubt about it…
Woman: What's happening??
Man 3: Oooooooooh!
Speaker: Hello, newcomers, and welcome. Can everybody hear me? [taps the mic a few times] Hello? Can everybuh-? Okay. [the crowd quiets down] Uh, I'm the hell director. Uh, it looks like we have about 8,615 of you newbies today, and for those of you who are a little confused, uh, you are dead, and this is hell, so, abandon all hope and uh yada yada yada. Uh, we are now going to start the orientation process, which will last about-
Man 4: Hey, wait a minute, I shouldn't be here. I wa a totally strict and devout Protestant! I thought we went to heaven!
Hell Director: Yes, well I'm afraid you were wrong.
Soldier: I was a practicing Jehovah's Witness. Uh, you picked the wrong religion as well.
Man 5: Well, who was right? Who gets into heaven?
Hell Director: I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer.
Crowd: [disappointed] Awww.

ladybug76234 said...

My dear metzger,
I do not make accusations against anyone. I had to read your post several times in an attempt to understand. You said:

"In Matthew this is an example of Christ using somewhat of a Socratic method to show the Rich Young Ruler the uselessness of the commands. He states instead that he must give up his lifestyle and follow him. This shocking statement that keeping the commands was not enough leads the disciples to ask, "Who can be saved?"(Mt. 25) Jesus answers them with the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard which, again, enforces the point the the Kingdom of Heaven is not dependent on what you do."

If you are arguing salvation, then I read that you are saying that our actions here in this life have no bearing on our salvation. All we have to do is believe?

And just a bit of a thought for pancho...do you realize that you come off totally insane? You are judging anyone who is stricken with illness or injury as a sinner and not worthy of entrance into the kingdom of heaven. What about babies born with congenital defects? How did they sin? You are lucky to live in a time and place that makes it possible for you to live such a healthy life. God has gifted many men and women throughout history with the intelligence to invent and discover cures and treatments to illnesses thus enabling us all to live longer healthier lives than even just 100 years ago. I dont think He would single out just a hand full of souls and protect them like that. We are all here on the same planet & prone to the same dangers. Adversity (like maybe an illness) is just another way we can show our faith by enduring to the end.

Anonymous said...

Can someone please answer how you get into Christ? Give me scripture. Thank's Yall keep saying you must be in Christ to be saved.

ladybug76234 said...

I think we all want to know the answer to that one anon 11:53. The reason why no one answers you is because no one is sure. It is an act of faith. Follow the commandments of God in the belief that we will earn a place with God in his kingdom in the end. God has not shown us difinitive proof that this will happen. I believe that if you belive AND have faith AND live by the teachings of Christ AND follow the commandments of God. This is a continual thing. You cant just be "saved" once and thats it. It is a lifelong process.

Anonymous said...

We are baptized INTO CHRIST. Gal.3:27 ladybug you are so right your not just saved once, except from your past sin's, it is a life long process, of obeying God's word-command's-rules-whatever you want to call them. I am sure it's Gal.3:27 and Rom.6:3-8

Anonymous said...

Once you are saved you are always saved. You do not loose your salvation. Being in a right relationship with Christ brings you closer to Him and encourages you to walk in His likeness. To be saved all you have to do is believe and you shall receive.

Pancho said...

Ladybug, I judge no one. I am just stating what I have discerned from God's Word. Sickness and death came to this world because of sin. The less I sin, The less sickness that comes into my life. I see this as a way to eternal life through Christ. He did say if you have the faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains. I have faith that I will live a long healthly life. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: This is who brings sickness into this world. God gives you armor to ward off the devil. Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. All I can say is be at peace. I have not judged anyone or insulted anyone. I come in peace with my thoughts and God's scriptures. And I can say that God's Word works for me. God Bless You all! Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Pancho said...

11:53 AM

Again, look at with the Word said in Romans 10:9-10

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Anonymous said...

so the little buddhist child in mongolia that dies cant go to heaven because he didnt "confess" and get "saved" That makes sense. God must not love him as much as you?

m&m said...

Anon 4:10 So, you are saying after being saved a person doesn't have to repent of any sins they might commit after being saved. So, you don't have to go to church, pay tithes, be honest, you can commit adultery, bear false witness, drink, do drugs etc. and not have to repent. Wow, what a plan. Anyone would like that plan. Make one verbal statement that you believe in Jesus Christ and you've got it made.

That's horse manure and you know it. That doctrine is not biblical and you can't find any proof in the Bible that it's true.

Anonymous said...

Such a showing of pride is not something I would continue to flaunt pancho. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away...isnt that how the saying goes?

Anonymous said...

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. See Pancho's verse even says it. You do not have to be baptized to be saved. Simply believe and you will receive.

m&m said...

Anon 9:51 Catch a clue. You need to read my entry at 8:40 am and see that the Bible tells us a lot of different things necessary for us to do in order to be saved, not just believe and confess. You have to look at the Bible as a whole, not just one verse.

Anonymous said...

Thank you m&m, Read God's word and find the truth. there is alot more scripture than the believe part's, the devil's also believe and tremble are they going to heaven?

Pancho said...

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

God Bless You All!

Anonymous said...

You really are a moron pancho. You cant take the bible and manipulate it. That is a huge book that talks about a lot more than how God loves pancho and he is saved. Why would JESUS HIMSELF get baptized if it wasnt important? Why would he tell us to pray, and love each other, and observe the sacrament (last supper ring a bell?) Have you ever studied for yourself? Have you ever looked at any other scripture verse other than the ones your preacher quoted? You really dont sound like you have. At least metzger and m&m bring something to the table. They dont just keep repeating themselves about how special they are.

Uh oh....I think God has just blessed me with a new gift. I can see the future....Yes, it is getting clearer. Pancho is going to say that they dont talk about how special they are because....they havent been saved! They dont have Jesus "in them." They must be...gasp....SINNERS! Oh the horror!

ladybug76234 said...

Pancho, you arent one of those that belive that because Eve committed the sin of partaking of the forbidden fruit, then all women must be prone to sin, are you? Because that sounds like where you might be comming from...the whole original sin thing. Sickness is a plague on the earth because of Eve? Those darn women. Always messing everything up.

I dont think you would make it if you jumped off of a building because you had faith it would be a safer quicked way down. Your reasoning is flawed. I feel that I can do anything...within reason. If I decided to become a medical doctor, I would WORK HARD and make it happen. God would be proud of me, but I dont think he would pave the way for me just because I was "saved" and believe. He leaves a lot up to you.

And why bother to add things to your post like love thy neighbor as thyself and pray for others if you dont believe it is necessary? You have already been saved. Spare your blessings on us sinners.

If you were talking that way in public, people would get kind of scared and you might be taken away for observation. You do realize that dont you?

Yes, I sound harsh. Yes, I probably insulted you. But that is one thing that really pushes my button. People who cant control themselves and are so self righteous that they cant open their minds to anything else. There are so many good and faithful people out there in this world. God loves ALL of them whether they are christian or not. And He doesnt punish people left & right with horrible diseases. You never even addressed my question about innocent babies with illnesses. I was looking forward to that response too.

Anonymous said...

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26 But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James1:22 Sound's like theres some work envolved here. Hum

Pancho said...

All I've been doing is quoting scripture.I haven't called anyone any names. I have not insulted anyone. I have not judged anyone. I've given God's Blessings to you all. I do not pretend to know all the answers. I just know what has been working for me. My health,properity and wisdom on dealing with everyday life has grow for the better. I just trying to share the good that's happening in my life. I have not failed in letting you know what scriptures have helped me. I leave this now to the Holy Spirit to guide us all in our lives. And I leave you with one more scripture.
Hosea 4:6 (King James Version)
6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

We are still going to be judged in the end. God Bless You All!!Be at Peace and know that He is you God!!

Metzger said...

You guys, this is just kind of unproductive. I'm not bowing out b/c I'm not able to respond to these arguments, but because there are books written on these things and we are not going to end all debate here. If I had to boil down salvation, going back to the story of the rich young ruler, the one command that he couldn't follow, which was obviously more important than the others was to follow Christ. Basically, and with the earliest confession of the church which they said from the beginning, Jesus Christ is Lord. It's about Lordship. Does this take faith, yes. Are works involved in some way, yes. I think as a product. You are right when you say demons believe and tremble, but our faith is placed in something. Belief acts in faith to declare Christ as Lord. We are as Ephesians states saved by grace through faith and it's not of ourselves, but a gift. A gift I'm very thankful for. Giving him control of all things. And as James says we will show our faith by our works and what we do. Faith without works is dead. Whether this has anything to do with salvation, since he is writing to a group of believers, is seen by most NT scholars as doubtful. But I do believe endurance to the end is key as said by Christ and in Hebrews.

So, unlike the rich young ruler I choose to follow Christ with all that I have. And this effects everything that I do.

As far as baptism, I think you guys should study what baptism meant to the contemporaries of Jesus' day. It's not like baptism was a Christian invention. It had been around for years. There are 400 years between the Testaments. Baptism was understood by 1st century Jews as a symbolic act of purity whereby one declared to the public that they were devoted to a new way. People were washed into Judaism, within Judaism, and then into Christianity itself. This understanding carries over into the new movement of believers when they declared, Jesus Christ is Lord and were baptized in public.
I also would recommend reading Ladd's Theology of the New Testament for guidance on discussion of the Kingdom of God and its significance.

I really am glad these issues are so important to us all, they should be. Thank you all.
And I would be happy to meet anybody and discuss them face to face. That would be tons more productive and exciting, as long as you come open-minded and humble as I promise to as well. We could start a Wise County Theological Discussion Group. We're all obviously addicts in need of help.

Pancho said...

metzger I agree with you. I would like to meet with you. I'm always in ready to learn more. How may I contact you.

Anonymous said...

May the word of God dwell in you richely in all wisdom,and understanding. Last thing, agian how must one get in Christ? Baptism

Anonymous said...

You are so wrong! Baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

Anonymous said...

Oh yes it does.