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I kept hearing the story of Barack Obama not "putting his hand" over his heart during the National Anthem. I finally saw the youtube clip of it here.
I'll probably get blasted for this (nothing new), but I don't recall ever being taught to put my hand over my heart during that song. Now during the Pledge of Allegiance, yeah, I always do it. But not during the National Anthem.
85 comments:
He won't wear an American flag lapel pin either. He says symbolism does not represent patriotism. It is clear that Obama is not really for this country, he is only for OBAMA!
unfortunately i have to agree with you there BG...if you have a hat on, it is removed and placed over the heart but otherwise i don't recall any particular stance requirement for a civilian...
My grandfather taught me national anthem etiquette at a very early age, back when we first had a TV set in our living room.
My Irish grandfather loved baseball and being able to watch the game in his chair in his small living room was almost like being at the game.
When the national anthem was played, he stood up and placed his hand over his heart.
My grandfather loved his country and expressed it when no one was watching but his young gandchild.
Not only do I place my hand on my heart while singing the anthem with my eyes on our flag, I take that special time to think about all the sacrifices that were made for me that I can be free and be blessed to wwin the big lottery in life by being born in the USA.
Obama made a very big mistake and this picture will haunt him if he is the nominee because his patriotism will be questions.
Sometimes we learn the most about a candidate when they make a mistake. Just like Michelle Obama's saying for the first time she was proud of her county.
Republicans are going to beat him to death for this. Just wait and watch. He has had a pass and has been the liberal press's darling.
And John McCain may be nice to him while letting all the attack dogs loose.
Obama is so vunerable for so many, many reasons. The association that really bothers me is the Columbia University professor that brokered the President of Iran to speak at Columbia. I thought this was a really stupid idea. The professor and Obama association goes back to Chicago. And Obama graduated from Columbia after attending a college in California. He attended schools in Indonesia and a very prestigous prep school in Hawaii. He has no first hand knowledge of public education.
Voters will start hearing about this later if he is the nominee.
People are talking about this picture and it is a big, big problem.
It is sad his grandfather was not like mine. According to people who knew his maternal grandfather, he was liberal when no one knew what being liberal was. And his paternal grandfather was Muslim living in Kenya.
But we come from different worlds with opposite values. I think the voters should check into the facts about Obama's background.
I can't vote for Obama because I cannot identify with him on values and love of country.
Are you American Barry????????
In the military you don't put your hand over your heart. If you are wearing any sort of cap (head cover) you stand at attention and salute. If you don't have on a hat you stand at attention.
As a civilian, yeah most people put there hand over their heart. At least he wasn't like Denver Nugget's point guard Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf who refused to stand for the National Anthem, but later compromised to stand and "pray" during the Anthem.
When the national anthem is played or sung, citizens should stand at attention and salute at the first note and hold the salute through the last note. The salute is directed to the flag, if displayed, otherwise to the music.
civilians salute its national flag by placing their right hands over their hearts and saying the Pledge of Allegiance or National Anthem.
Senator Obama should salute not only for our flag and country but for the respect to the women and men of the Military.
God bless America!
I've always been taught to place your right hand over your heart, during the Pledge of Alegiance, and The National Anthem.I think this guy needs some Home Training.
I'm with you on this one Barry. Other than the Pledge, the only time I put my hand to my heart is when the anthem is played and I'm wearing a cap since that's the easiest place to hold it, so I can put it back on when the song ends. If someone's going to badmouth Obama, it needs to be for something a hell of a lot more substantial than that. He's not my personal choice for President, but it's certainly not because of this picture.
Muslims are taught to grab their crotch.
my thoughts exactly when that first came out....
I was taught to always remove your (for men), hat, cap, or whatever, stand up, and place your right hand over your heart. This was for both the Pledge AND the National Anthem. I was in 1st grade and that was in 1959!!! What in the Hell happened to that rule?? It makes me want to kick peoples a$$es who disrespect it!!
yawn. there's a picture of H.W. Bush doing the same thing (too lazy to link it).
apparently the right's conception of patriotism is wearing lapel pins, holding your hand over your heart, and killing as many foreigners as possible in neverending wars.
this is not what our founders had in mind for this country. read the federalist papers.
I was never taught to place my hand over my heart during the national anthem either; only during the pledge of allegiance.
7:24
I agree with Obama that empty symbolism does not equate with patriotism. Does any thinking person actually believe that the wearing of the ubiquitous (and trite) flag pin is an indication of patriotism?
If you'd all stop being so bent out of shape, they're all doing it wrong. They're not even facing the flag.
US Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Paragraph 171. Hand goes over heart or salutes if in uniform.
8:13 - and many Republicans won't vote for McCain because they think he is a closet Democrat.
Conservative talk shows are helping the Dems rather than hurting them by lambasting McCain.
For all you super patriots out there, do you also stand in your living rooms and do the same when the national anthem is played on TV? Do you pay appropriate respect to all the American flags you pass along the highways? No, you don't. So keep your selective super patriotism to yourself.
11:38 you might consider kicking aSSes in one of the wars.
According to Wikipedia:
Custom
When the song is performed in public, the US National Anthem Code, adopted in 1942, specifies the etiquette rules for playing and responding to the song. The audience members are expected to face the American flag if one is displayed, and stand in an attitude of respectful attention.[8] If the flag is not present, the audience faces the direction of the music and still stands in a respectful attention with their hand over their heart.[9]
People in uniform, including military personnel, fire service and law enforcement officers, are expected to salute or "present arms" during the national anthem from the first note and hold the salute until the last note is played. People not in military or other uniforms are expected to remove their hats and stand with respect and face the flag if present.
OK so I am 26 and have children in school. They don't sing the National Anthem every day like the Pledge of Allegiance (both to the American Flag and the Texas Flag) but when they do they are not asked to hold their hands over their hearts.
I always thought that you were to remove anything that might be on your head and hold it over your heart. Everyone should be standing up straight and tall and looking at the Flag as the National Anthem is sang.
I believe that the most respect I can give during the National Anthem is to show that I am a proud American, that I am proud to be in America, that I am thankful for all the people that make it possible for me to live with the freedom that I do. I believe that the placement of your hand over your heart during the National Anthem shows your love for our country. I have always placed my hand over my heart during the National Anthem but that is my choice to show how much I love America. I stand straight and tall (at attention) facing the flag to show my respect to America and those who serve America.
I find it very offensive to see someone standing with their hand over their heart but all slumped over during either the Pledge of Allegiance or the National Anthem. I believe that symbolism displayed properly represents not only patriotism but also passion and love.
Is that Milton Cude with the camera?
There has never been any question about Obama’s allegiance; he’s pledged it at his church for over 20 years.
We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.
9 of 12 "concepts"
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.
Please read where this group pledges their allegiance. It’s no secret, no one is hiding it. It’s to Africa and each other. Not America!
I WAS taught to place my hand over my heart for both pledge and national anthem. It shows RESPECT for those who fought bravely to KEEP THIS COUNTRY FREE! period! Obama fails to do this; therefore, why in the world would we elect him to RUN a country he has no respect for? He won't place his hand over his heart or wear a flag pin on his lapel because he says he doesn't believe in symbolism. Every nation in this world has a flag to symbolize it. Anyone with any sense of patriotism KNOWS to show respect to their country. But because Obama says HE doesn't believe in symbolism, now all of a sudden it is OK? How do you people feel about the ones who TURN THEIR BACKS to the flag when the pledge is said, or the anthem sung? Bet you don't feel real good about those peoples attitudes. Well...Obama is in the same class. I won't vote for him simple BECAUSE he refuses to pay the respect that all Americans should pay to remember those who have died for our freedoms. You got a problem with that...too bad!
Denny Crane is right.
What I can't understand is why the ancestors of the members of that church ever came to the United States in the first place if they are so in love with Africa? After all, it's not like they were forced to come here, is it? Why can't they pledge allegiance to White values?
obama osama if it quacks like a duck walks like a duck than igt must be a duck he and hjillary are both communist vote republican and vote for tison
anon 12:42 when you have attened as many funerals as i have for fallen soliders then you will understand the importance of having a president who respects and honors the flag!
god bless our troops
When is the last time a Republican saluted the flag by doing something worthwhile for this country?
Well done Denny!!!
I put this on my blog earlier and received a comment that this was shown to not be real.
I believe that it is real.
The problem I have with the Obama phenomenon is the tendency of the American people to become sheep with any movement that becomes popular and it sponsored by the mainstream media (New York) and the liberal left coast (Hollywood). The Obama sheep (if you believe that impression given by the media of the strength of Obama's following) are carrying this country to doom. I still believe that he will sell this country out to terrortists the way Nelville Chamberlain tried to sell Great Britain and Europe to Hitler. Luckily, Winston Churchill arrived in time. The entire time Chamberlain was selling out the world in Munich, Churchill had the guts to continue to state that they were making a deal with the devil. I believe that is the direction this country is going. How long do you think the terrorists will be at bay when they figure out that Americans no longer have the stomach for a fight? Does anyone really believe that the forces that wish to destroy this nation will ever give up and go away? No way!
The basic tenet if peaceful negotiation or diplomacy is that you must deal from a position of power; otherwise, there is no need for the enemy to negotiate. Obama will do more damage than Clinton did in dismantling our military power and intelligence community.
Grub Bonemeal you got to get away from the cool aide. When you said .... "Obama will do more damage than Clinton did in dismantling our military power and intelligence community."
It is obvious you are not part of ANY Intelligence Community !!!As a matter of fact you are a few bricks shy of a full load.
Were you one of those Republican idiots that went and voted early as a Democrat in the Democratic Primary.
Crud - You are right on all counts. Obama says that he would have resolved the Iraq situation with diplomacy and not war, and the same would apply to future threats. Here is a list of UN resolutions that attempted to handle the absolute dicatatorship of Iraq iplomatically:
http://www.casi.org.uk/info/scriraq.html#2001
The UN instituted the Oil For Food program to alleviate claims of Iraqi starvation resulting from international boycotts. Saddam used the funds to buy weapons of war.
You have accurately escribed the worst kind of undercurrents prior to WWII that almost resulted in Hitler conquoring the modern world. We need no leader like Obama who would fall for that kind of surrender.
Obama should at least complete one term as a Senator before trying out as Commander In Chief. What about the empty skirt? Uhh...NOT EVER!
I agree with crud. How can we expect to continue being the greatest nation on earth, when there is no unity or understanding of what it takes to do that. There is no respect for, or willingness to sacrifice. We are not a melting pot anymore. We have become a patch work of different cultures that have no respect for, and a great deal of contempt for, American culture and values. We lack the responsibility to maintain the freedom that we have. Rome fell after 500 years because it lost its national identity. The US is barely half of that age. I don't think we can make it.
12:09 - Wearing the symbols and saluting the colors is not necessarily an expression of patriotism. But absolute refusal to do either is damned sure an expression of an asshole who has no patriotism for this country!
For those that don't want to honor the American flag and National Anthem get off of American soil.
sacrifice has nothing to do with putting your hand over your heart during a song. if you want this contry to be better, you have to sacrifice. taxes will have to be raised. americans needs to stop waiting on the government to bail them out and start taking responsibiliy for their actions.
To "witness" @12:46pm LOL!!! LOL!!!, I guess you're right, I was too busy running,jumping and playing in "Dewy Canyon" with my teenage buddies to even consider kicking an American's a$$!!! Maybe I should have joined the National Guard instead, AND YOU??
If anything, Obama is guilty of a breech of etiquette. None of the three candidates in the photo were facing the flag (behind them)
But, patriotism has a lot more to do with sacrifice and service than hollow displays of flag-waving, and sticking a 79 cent ribbon magnet on your SUV.
All three candidates at this point have spent their lives in service to this country and should be honored for it.
To 6:26 pm:
Have you even heard of the 9-11 report? I have a copy of it. Even someone of your limited intelligence can understand that 9-11 was all on Slick Willy. We had no idea what was going on because Billy Boy was dumping money into socialistic domestic programs and not worrying about protecting us. His big foreign policy stand was to get us mired in a civil war in Kosovo. COME ON! We didn't even have a sufficient number of armored vehicles for the guys to fight in. Cheez. And ladies? Do you really want to be absorbed into militant Islamic culture? Talk about putting an end to the concept of the liberated woman. And yet, women support this guy. Obama has got to be the biggest con job in US history. If this guy is President, you better get ready to defend your home and family. He will not do it. How many of you have seen "Red Dawn"? Well, it's coming with Hussein Obama, if he wins, only the invaders will be wearing sheets and turbans.
I think some of those people who saw the UFOs down in Stephenville have started posting comments here.
2:11 PM--It's Melton Cude, not Milton Cude, but it DOES look like my "bald" head!! Pretty astute observation--that's funny!!
Melton
Wow! It appears there are many blog posters who "think" they know all about flag etiquette but it is very clear they do not. Please all of you "expert" patriots show me where there is a requirement to place hand over heart during the National Anthem. You may have thought you were taught to do that in school or by some relative but, in fact, there is no such requirement for civilians.
As for crudbonemeal - obviously you have not read your copy of the 9/11 Commission report as it says nothing you claim. Your other random claims are also without merit. However, I realize you're more into propaganda than facts. And that's a fact.
PERSONALLY I DON'T WANT TO SEE HILLARY AS OUR PRESIDENT, BUT IN THE SAME TOKEN I REALLY DON'T WANT TO SEE BARRACK "BIN LADIN" HUSSEIN OBAMA IN THE WHITE HOUSE FOR SURE. I STRONGLY URGE YOU TO VOTE DEMOCRAT IN PRIMARY FOR HILLARY JUST TO VOTE AGAINST THE TERRORIST. THEN CHANGE LATER AND VOTE REPUBLICAN. THINK ABOUT IT WHAT BETTER WAY FOR TERRORISTS TO WIN THAN TEAR US DOWN FROM THE INSIDE!!!!!!!!!!
WhosPlayin?,
You wrote, “But, patriotism has a lot more to do with sacrifice and service than hollow displays of flag-waving, and sticking a 79 cent ribbon magnet on your SUV.”
Pull over one of those ribbon sticker, flag-waving SUV’s and tell them you think their patriotism is hollow. You will probably walk back to your car with a flag stuck up your arse!
You also wrote, “All three candidates at this point have spent their lives in service to this country and should be honored for it.”
Obama hasn’t spent his life in service to this country. 8 years as a state Senator and 3 years as a U S Senator does not a lifetime make. If you want to honor him for his life of service to his country, you might want to look up his voting record while in the Senate. He refuses to wear an American Flag lapel pin and not place his hand over his heart during our National Anthem… because it is a “substitute for true patriotism”. I will not honor his accomplishments, because there are none.
It sounds like you would get on an airplane with a blind pilot and tell everyone it’s safe. WhosPlayin, I’m not! I am very concerned… I will never “honor” liars, liberals or unpatriotic politicians… at least with Clinton and McCain we know what we are getting…nothing special, but nothing fanatical.
They may have been "facing the music"
US Code, Title 36, Chapter 10 Paragraph §171. Conduct during playing During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.
I promise you if Obama becomes President things will change!
For example ... US CODE, Title 36, Chapter 10, Paragraph 178. Modification of rules and customs by President
Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation.
Hey, Whosplayin.... can you name what Obama HAS DONE FOR this country? Bet not.
As far as him saying he isn't a believer in symbols, and that is why he won't wear a lapel pin. Well...I bet the man wears a wedding ring..right? THAT IS A SYMBOL!! Take it OFF Obama if you are true to your word.
8:31 PM - (hint) Maybe the three of them were facing a flag flying at staff in that direction. Duh!
"Please read where this group pledges their allegiance. It’s no secret, no one is hiding it. It’s to Africa and each other. Not America!"
And this, of course, from a self-declared Angry WHITE Man. Since DC's logic dictates that recognition of one's ethnicity or race precludes allegiance to America, I wonder what he has against this country?
This says it all. A staunch Obama supporter is stunned by question about his experience.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/obama_surrogates_flub_no_refle.html
Hey, what has Bush done for this country? Her served in the military,,, oih wait, that's right he was in the National Guard and went AWOL...
8:13 - Great comparison! You just mentioned a helluva lot more that Bush has done that Obama hasn't. Obama is like the old snake oil salesman. All con-job and no substance.
6:07
Obama hasn't said he doesn't believe in symbols. His point (and I agree) is that the flag lapel-pin has become ubiquitous among certain politicians who's actions do not reflect the best interest of their country. What I find singularly ludicrous is that the patriotism of a man who is running for the office of president of the United States (with the attendant sacrifices) is being questioned. Almost as ludicrous as the belief that the wearing of a lapel-pin automatically denotes some degree of sincere patriotism.
If Obama was president and we should not have invaded Iraq then Saadam Hussein would still be in power and Bin Laden would still be trying to fly planes into our buidings.Now he is asking us to put someone in the White House who has a Muslim Father and an Atheist mom and he himself attends a church that considers Africa the motherland.(check it out for yourself at snopes)If we as a nation are stupid enough to do it then may God have mercy on our souls because we deserve what comes next.
My jewish, african-american grandson says that baseballs should be placed over your right earlobe during the playing of the anthem national.
Seriously, please post links to authoritative sources people.
For Instance, Section 802.1{$} of the US Criminal Code pertains to hand position during the national anthem, and carries a penalty of two lashes with a sensitivity cane if the hands are below waist level during the singing of the national anthem.
{Comment poster raises black power salute during national anthem performance}
heck, I was just kidding with my previous satirical post, evidently it was actually
US CODE Title 36,301
(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
10:56 - good points. I wear a Christian cross around my neck, but that does not mean I am any better (or worse) than anybody else.
The fact that Obama is a United States Senator should tell us that he cares about this country, or else he wouldn't have run for that position. Obviously some folks in his state thought well enough of his patriotism to elect him to such a high government office.
If he happens to be our next President, I care a whole lot more about what he is going to do about the messes we have in Washington.
After my mother passed away, we were going thru her jewelry, and we three sisters came across a US flag pin that was actually our grandmother's.
I was surprised that no one actually wanted it. I kept it, but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing it these days. Maybe later, like when GeeDub is documented historically as the worst POTUS ever.
I was especially proud of my oldest sister, who actually worked for Bush Sr. when he was running for the Senate. She voted for each Bush once. Note I said once. She didn't vote for Dumbya the second time around....she didn't even vote, and she apologized to me for voting for GWB in the first place.
8:19PM - is Dewy Canyon near the Dewy Church? I always spelled it Dewey, though. Just wondering. I live about a mile and a half from the church if that's where you're talking about, but it's in Gawd's County, no where near Wise County.
On "This Week" with George Stephanopolas (sp?) Political pundits agree that most of the affluent and educated voters in the United States vote Democrat. They must be reading Barry's Blog to come up with that gem.
By not showing his sense of decency at the Anthem, he showed disrespect for out country when he was visible and APPROPRIATE to do so. Like others did. Not only is he a disgrace, he is a damned LIAR! He says Hillary voted for the war in Iraq and he voted against it. He was not even a US Senator at the time!
Like many senators, Obama did not seek the office for patriotic reasons. His was (still is) a personal ego trip and he used the Chicago black vote to get there.
Ok, all you Obama suck-ups, give us one ACHIEVEMENT he has made as a US Senator.
OK, 3:36 as soon as you name an "achievement" that Dubya made before he was proclaimed (not elected)President.
And notice I am not hiding behind "Anonymous".
rpm:
Frankly, the only "achievements" I can think of is repeatedly failing at business (despite family connections) and a relatively powerless governorship. The "achievements" he has accomplished since taking office I prefer not to dwell on. I think approval ratings in the crapper pretty much say it all. Unfortunately, the next president (and the next....and probably the next) will be saddled with his "achivements". Mission Accomplished, indeed.
RPM - That cam't be your legal name...you are as anonymous as anyone here. And your Obama accomplishments are ..... ??
RPM.........................
In what way are you NOT hiding behind anonymous? Post your picture, name, address and phone number: then you can lay some claim to winning your embicilc argument over anonimity.
rpm - As Governor of Texas...
Bush appointed Supreme Court justices to complete the unexpired terms of judges who had retired.
Bush pushed for raises for teachers and an emphasis on reading.
Bush advocated and signed the largest two tax cuts in Texas history totaling over $3 billion.
Bush served as chief executive of the second biggest state which, if it were a nation, would be the 11th largest economy in the world.
In office he won a reputation for being able to forge bipartisan coalitions with the conservative legislature's Democrats, and won passage of changes to tort laws and the welfare, public-school, and juvenile-justice systems.
***
Now for Obama's accomplishements... well, I guess his legislation committing America to pay a new global tax to the United Nations for redistribution to other countries (after UN bureaucrats steal their fair share) qualifies as an "accomplishment."
By the way, if you can name ONE Obama legislative achievement, you're a better man that Texas State Senator Kirk Watson.
If you value charisma over any kind of proven ability, then Obama's your guy.
Rp, He managed the 14th largest budget in the world.
Oh..rpm, aren't you BRAVE!! You don't have the "anonymous" tag, but you sure as hell don't put your real NAME there, so you ARE JUST AS ANONYMOUS!! idiot!
who let the crazy out in here?
George W. Bush also achieved to be one of the select few to get his "drivers/arrest records" sealed. This was no easy task. He also bankrupted anything he touched, but came out smelling like Crawford Ranch CowDung. He achieved that big property tax cut, that for most amounted to a "couple bucks" a year. He achieved being able to do what he wanted to do in the military, and achieved avoiding Viet Nam. He achieved "insider trading" when it is hard for anyone else to do it. George W. Bush is an achiever.
wordkyle:
The "achievements" you listed amount to little more than seat-warming.
He didn't "achieve" anything by appointing justices. That was a simple function of his job and to neglect filling the vacancies would have been errant. Nor did he create the economy of Texas or designate it the second biggest state; those hardly qualify as personal "achievements". He advocated reading? Not for himself, apparently. Did anyone expect him to denounce it? Tax cuts? To what ultimate effect?
It say much when these are the extent of his achievements.
The last few posts were clearly designed to move the subject onto Bush, and distract attention from Obama's lack of achievement. It's clear that he can't be defended.
The patriotic symbolism that Obama eschews, along with his desire to incorporate the UN into our tax structure, and his willingness to embrace -- rather than confront -- America's enemies, shows a pattern of disdain for this country.
Each step is defended by his fanat -- er, "supporters," yet put them all together and the pattern is clear.
Add that to no discernible achievements other than to get votes, and you have a potential President elected purely on a cult of personality.
To 2:47pm - www.foxco-2ndbn-9thmarines.com/deweycanyon.htm,...... your right, not too close to Wise County.
RPM - (hint) George Bush isn't running again. Duh!
LOL!!! RPM can't come up with one Obama accomplishment so he attacks "anonymous" posters. Haaa...!! OK, genius, how about HALF an accomplishment as a senator. Typical empty Obama suck-up. (still waiting)
wordkyle:
Apparently you felt it worthwhile to list Bush's accomplishments while governor when it suited your purpose. Now you wish to subtract him from the debate. Fair enough. I can certainly understand your desire to distance yourself from him at this point. His presidency has been a great disappointment to me as well, probably for some of the same reasons but, I suspect, for many different ones also. But that is exactly the point. Such is the animous toward Bush that Obama has only to offer "change" and "hope" to propel himself forward in this campaign. If he gets the nomination, which seems likely, it will be precisely because of the Bush presidency. Setting aside the fact that there is some substantial distinction between echewing symbols and actual patriotism and the fact that Obama has never proposed "embracing" our enemies, it does seem that personality is a motivating factor when people choose their candidate. Like it or not, likability is important regardless of the political point of view and always has been. That people seem to like Obama at this point is relevant to the degree that they dislike Bush.
I think that if you don't want to put your hand over your heart during the national anthem, that's fine. It's your choice. At least face the flag and be respectful and don't talk or screw around while others are respecting their country.
Leave your hat on too if you want. Just make sure you're not within 10 feet of me because I'll smack it straight off your head for disrespecting my national anthem.
8:28 - A quick explanation of the obvious: I listed what Bush has done in response to RPM. I did not introduce his CV into the discussion.
You actually have made my point. Obama will probably be the next POTUS based solely on his ability to mesmerize his supporters.
Of course you want to "set aside" the discussion of patriotic symbolism. In and of itself it's not important, but it is part of a pattern of his attitude toward America and America's place in the world.
Obama's expressed intent to meet personally with leaders of rogue nations elevates their stature while lowering America's, and the idea has been derided by diplomatic experts as amateurish. Again, though, it fits his pattern.
I notice you ignore Obama's desire to have Americans pay a new tax to the United Nations. Indefensible?
Obama is running a campaign of distraction. If American voters and media insisted on substantive discussions of policies, political philosophies and issues, Obama's campaign would have withered on the vine.
Instead, we're voting for "class favorite."
wordkyle:
Speaking of the obvious, you chose to ignore the larger point of my comment: that the rise of Obama is directly linked to the fall of Bush. It may not be a pleasing reality, but it is a reality none the less.
I think it was also fairly obvious that an additional point I was making is that there is a distinction between true patriotism and the symbols of patriotism. The former may be sincerely felt and acted upon, the latter may be purchased for the price of a lapel pin. While they are not mutually exclusive, I have seen much evidence to suggest that the wearing of a flag does not guarantee a dedication to unselfish service among politicians.
It remains to be seen whether diplomatic overtures to our perceived enemies brings about peaceful solutions that meet our national interests. What we can be certain of is that our current status in Iraq has not met our expectations.
I do not find Obama's recognition of global poverty to be indefensable. I realize our relationship to the United Nations is a controversial one, but I believe our participation in its membership remains vital. Certainly no one likes taxes and I don't know if this one will have the desired result. I do know I'm not thrilled about the costs of the war to our national reputation and our wallets (2+ trillion dollars).
I feel confident that the campaigns will eventually hinge on "substantive discussions of policies, political philosophies and issues" ad nauseum. Even someone as initially likable as Obama has a long road ahead with a lot of mud to circumvent. I just can't bring myself to vote for someone (McCain) who is content to keep us in Iraq for 10,000 years or someone (Huckabee) who proposes to change the constitution "to reflect God's will", whatever that may be.
12:39 - As you wish. I defer to your judgment that Obama's success in the campaign is based on his likeability rather than substantive issues, such as accomplishments.
That is what you're saying, right?
In the discussion of Obama's less-than-lofty opinion of America, I said myself that an individual component in itself is not important, unless it is part of a larger pattern, which in Obama's case it is. You slyly avoid that point.
Bush has implemented diplomatic efforts without meeting with enemies personally -- which is what experts advise, thus their criticism of Obama's intent to meet with them personally. You slyly avoid that point.
We are all concerned about global poverty to one degree or another. However, of the presidential candidates, only Barack Obama has introduced legislation which would lead to a new global tax that Americans would pay to the United Nations for redistribution in other countries. You slyly avoid that point.
Every time the discussion turns to Obama's achievements, accomplishments or political philosophy -- substantive topics -- his supporters try to change the subject. That very timidity should be enough to make someone think twice about voting for Obama.
wordkyle:
One again you slyly missed or outright avoided the major point of my comment. You also slyly attempted to put words in my mouth and slyly made assumptions about me and my views. Rather than address it, you attempted to make clever with the whole "sly" redundancy. Tiring, no?
I have not now, nor have I ever painted myself as an Obama supporter. Slyly or otherwise. I haven't made up my mind, frankly. I don't regard his ascention in popularity as the Second-Coming, but I don't regard him as a potential terrorist either. I'll leave that to the extremists, many of whom check in here from time to time. I did mention that I don't plan on voting for the current Republican candidates because....well, because they scare the holy crap out of me for reasons which I also already mentioned.
What I wrote and which you have chosen to ignore is that people seem to like Obama relevant to the degree that they dislike Bush. His success at this point is based largely on the fact that Bush has failed. I expect that will change, as I mentioned earlier, but this is the reality now. So yeah, he is succeeding less on the basis of his own accomplishments and more on the basis of Bush's "accomplishments". Why do you think people are so drawn to the whole "change" mantra? I'm not demanding support for Obama, I'm just pointing out a political reality of the moment. I really don't give a rat's patooti if you dislike the man and his positions or not. Honest. Not trying to convert you. Slyly or otherwise. Really.
Jeez.
What I do find ridiculous is that it is not OK to support the man for his perceived character and personality, but it is quite acceptable to condemn him as unpatriotic because he chooses not to wear a lapel pin. Which seems more trivial to you? I suppose it would be the likability factor since you imply that not wearing a pin is part of a "pattern" of a "less than lofty opinion of America". Really? A whole pattern? Now that's sly.
Can Obama be trusted with your support? His successful races for Illinois Senator and US Senator were based in great part on the money, help and hard work of Louis Farrakhan and the New Nation of Islam. Farrakhan's influence over masses of balck voters in Obama's district made the difference.
Last week, Farrakhan again publicly endorsed Obama and was not only immediately rebuked by Obama, he was TRASHED for his position against Jews. Although I have no use for Farrakhan or his movement, this tells me a lot about how easily Obama can betray and condemn a loyal and supportive ally. Even a rattlesnake has more ethics than that.
Your major point, as you call it, is inaccurate as well as irrelevant. If it was simply a matter of not liking Bush, then all of the Democrats would be in the race, since that's the main thing they all ran on.
The question is Why Obama? What has he done that the other Bush-hating Democrats have not? He has managed to get through the primaries up to now without being really questioned about anything substantive. (Obama walked out of a press conference yesterday when the questions got too hot about his Rezko connection, so maybe the honeymoon's over now that he's all but won the nomination.)
I'm glad you caught the rhetorical device. I laid it on pretty thick so you wouldn't miss it. You simply want to pretend that Bush is somehow running in this election, and I refuse to let questions about Obama be deflected that easily.
Change? Go back two hundred years and probably 99% of political campaigns feature a candidate proclaiming he's the voice for "change." Obama's simply a traditional Liberal Democrat in a new skin.
Obama has exhibited a pattern of behavior regarding a conscious lessening of American stature. No flag on his lapel? No big deal, it's only a symbol. Elevate a two-bit tyrant by meeting with him in person? No big deal, it's just a meeting. Introduce legislation to force Americans to pay a new global tax to the United Nations? No big deal, it's just another trillion dollars.
Democrats have been Bush-bashing since he won the Presidency in 2000. Your desire to make him the foundation of your argument shows a narrow, stereotypical and outdated point of view, I believe, but if you think it's important, knock yourself out.
It is true that non-incumbent presidential candidates have long trumpeted a movement toward “change”. That you choose to ignore the impetus for the change indicates either a supreme naïveté or a profound investment in denial. What exactly do you suppose the change is referring to? Pretend all you like that the presidency of Bush is not a factor in this election, but it simply is. Pretend that people are not disillusioned by a bogus war. Distance yourself from the fact that this administration has systematically circumvented the constitution. Deny that this president has degraded the regard that other nations have traditionally held for the United States through ignorance, incompetence and arrogance. Ignore approval ratings if you will. “Bush bashing” you say? Gee, you almost make that sound like an unreasonable thing.
“Obama has exhibited a pattern of behavior regarding a conscious lessening of American stature.”
Now that’s funny! Ironic, but funny. Wish I had the will to laugh, but in light of our current administration I just don’t have the heart.
"Change" was the theme of the campaigns of Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton and GW Bush. There is nothing unique about the Democrats' cries of change. You simply want to take this discussion as an excuse to criticize Bush.
Even then, you have nothing new to add. You're trotting out the same canards the Democrats have been using for eight years. Unimpressive. If you had anything new or even imaginative it might be worth responding to.
I'm not bothering to defend Bush because I know from experience that Bush-haters don't care about facts. You have the same mindset as the Obama supporters.
Maybe the tide has turned. Obama was rattled at the recent press conference, the first one where he was not coddled. Perhaps Rezko will stick to him.
I criticize Bush because of the outrageous abuses which have occured since he took office. And it isn't just Democrats who do so.
You're not defending Bush because there is simply no defense. No amount of head-in-the-sand-turning-a-blind-eye posturing on your part will change that. How tiresome and sad.
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