This is a mosque
After avoiding the controversy for weeks, President Obama endorsed the plan to build a mosque and Islamic center blocks away from New York's Ground Zero. "Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground," Obama said at a White House dinner commemorating the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. "But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances."
For those that honor the Constitution's "Freedom of Religion" amendment, can you really disagree with that?
And I'll give him credit: The politically astute thing to do would be to please the masses and oppose it. Props to him.
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122 comments:
It's FIVE blocks away from Ground Zero in an old Burlington Coat Factory Building. There's another one that's been there since before the twin towers were built just two blocks from Ground Zero. Big deal. Fox News just has to have something to gripe at Obama about at all times.
We don't have freedom of religion in this country. We have a limited form. It's OK to worship however you want, as long as it an accepted form of worship. It's not freedom of religion. Not sure about that? Check out some cultures around the world and what they truly believe. There are fundamental practices and expressions associated with their beliefs that, if practiced in the United States as they are in around the world, is a prison term. And yet, those people in those cultures believe what they believe as sincerely as a true Christian or Muslim or Jew or Buddhist believes.
I'll start buying this whole religion thing when God, who apparently can "wrap his arms around families in times of need", can apparently steer a tornado away from a home, provide food in times of need, and all of these direct involvements in everyone's daily life....starts learning how to open a car door, unlock a seat belt, and carry a little baby out who is suffering.
the Founders intended freedom of religion for Christians only!! read the Constitution, morans!
And thus sealed the fate of all liberal weenies running for re-election in November. Thank you B Ho.
Jesus commissioned his followers to "go and make disciples of all nations".
Apparently allah did the same because the muslim religion is one of the fastest growing religions in America and Western Europe. Maybe you guys should check them out before you allow them the freedom to take over.
September 911 was an act of Jihad. Ask the relatives of the 2976 people who died why the mosque shouldn't be built near Ground Zero!
“Muslim leaders need to understand that 9/11 remains an open wound for Americans. And it is wrong to rub salt into an open wound.” -- Akbar Ahmed, Ibn Khaldun Chair of Islamic Studies, American University in Washington DC; First Distinguished Chair of Middle East and Islamic Studies at the US Naval Academy; Nonresident Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution; and most importantly, a moderate Muslim.
How can Liberals be so adamant about condemning those who give offense (Dr. Laura, anyone?) and yet defend the Muslims' desire to poke a finger in the eye of 70% of Americans? Radical Islamists and their commitment to the destruction of the West continue to be an enormous blind spot for Liberals. Radical Muslims will exploit our own system and Liberal foolishness to destroy us.
Yeah, "morans!"
Lol
Of course they have the right to build it. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
If zoning laws can be used to stop a Mosque, they can be used to stop a Protestant church.
It is already happening in Vancouver including making church property subject to taxes.
Let's take a breath citizens.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."
Excellent attempt, O Liberal One, to attempt to invoke a straw man argument as a Constitutional issue.
So, let's see, so far we have Obammy, not the Cogrefs, espousing support for a mosque in the vicinity of the former twin towers. No Constitutional issue there.
Seems to me this is more of a property rights issue. Does a private landholder have an absolute right to build whatever he/she chooses on a parcel of land?
Most cities' zoning laws would answer with a resounding "No", asserting the right to ensure or preserve complementary or harmonious uses within a development area.
But, getting back to the instant case, within the context of 9/11/01, would not building a mosque in that zone be tantamount to shouting "Fire" in crowded theatre?
What say you, Oliver Wendell Green?
And Obammy will probably attend the ribbon cutting like all good politicians. Now if they would only build a mosque across from the White House so that he wouldn't have far to go to worship, even though it's been over a year and a half and he still can't find a church to attend. Offer that idiot a ham sandwich and see if he eats it. A pork a day, keeps the muslims away.
If Muslim's have any kind of compassion at all for what their own kind did to AMERICANS, then they would not even THINK about putting a mosque there at all. If they have any sense, they would steer completely clear of the place and realize what kind of hurt it will cause AMERICANS. Why do they not think so logically? Because they WANT to rub salt into the wound....they WANT Americans to know they will do as they damn well please and they WANT to take our country over. When they do that, do you Americans truly believe THEY WILL ADHERE TO OUR CONSTITUTION????? if you do think they will, then you are so completely stupid!!! DEFEND AMERICA!!!
So does the Taliban get to worship at this center? I'm sure they will have a few lil recruits there! I understand freedom of religion, but what are we in a war for? Did it not start with the Twin Towers? Personally, I think it is a slap in the face of our nation. I'm sure you could ask any of the soldiers at Afghanistan or the families of the Dr.s and team of people that were lined up and murdered by the taliban last week.
I think we need to open a Gay Muslim Strip joint right next door or a BBQ pork rib place. it's a free country Obammy said so
Go read what Obi just posted (High Tone).
If they have the right to build it, do we have the right to bomb it?
ITS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN IF WE ALLOW THIS MOSQUE TO BE BUILT. I WEEP FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY!
In light of the opposition of 70% of Americans to the building of the mosque, and that now Democrat Congressional candidates will have to deal with the controversy during their campaigns, the White House has come out twice since Friday to "clarify" Obama's remarks. So much for Obama's vaunted ability to communicate. The politically astute thing would have been to say that the Muslims "acted stupidly." But I don't recall Obama publicly criticizing Muslims for anything. Police, yes. American voters, yes. American military, yes. But Muslims? No.
Religous freedom does not give radical Muslims the right to "practice their religion" anywhere in the USA if it is training terrorists and teaching the downfall of Western civilization. Muslims must build the highest mosques to reign over other non-Muslims. Obama is insensitive to what their "rights" are and what is right for all the families who lost loved ones and all our troops who are still fighting radical Islamic terrorists.
Obama continues to prove he is either one of them or his far left ideology blinds him to the threat radical Islam is to our liberty. Either way he should not be re-elected as our leader in 2012.
Sometimes right according to the law and right according to common sense veer sharply away from each other.
Props to Obama? I don't think so.
Wordkyle, you can be a real ass sometimes. Are you aware of this fact?
As usual the President applied his soaring intellect to an issue and completely missed the point. No one is considering the religious aspects..that is a false dicotomy that the President is using to fool the idiots who voted for him....it is about the placement and it is about the way the people building the mosque are lying about their reasons. Pretty easy to determine that building bridges and mending fences is not what is intended because it is making people mad...if their aim was what they said...they wouldn't build it there. Only Obama could be so obtuse as to totally miss the point.
I happen to agree. Let's get Christian American citizens involved in this Holy War as soon as possible.
It's time to play Cowboys and Muslims!
I thought there weren't anymore tar balls in the gulf?
Is that the president in Lake Bridgeport
Let's consider a simple fact: not all Muslims are "radical" or jihadists. Hey now, wasn't Hitler a Christian and leader of a mostly "Christian" nation? Did we then assume all Germans, Italians, Catholics, and/or Protestants were intent on attacking American freedoms. Heck we interred American citizens of Japanese descent but not the Germans. It requires a huge jump of logic to condemn an entire religion or nationality based upon the actions of a few extremists. Can't we rational folks just get along while being aware of and dealing with the deviants of all faiths?
Yes props to him, how can we say a church is good there but not a mosque?
Would you really expect our Muslim president to oppose this? Come on!
OK, I read this whole thing and "Morans" is a bloody understatement!!
"Man is distinguishable from the lower animals by two characteristics. One is his unmatched capacity for learning. The other is his steadfast determination not to use it." I believe that was Mark Twain.
Wise County must be where the conservative Republican genome developed! I wonder if Darwin ever considered the process of reverse evolution?
Of course he didn't!! He never visited Wise County, Texas!!
Lordy, what a load of loopy lunkheads!
1033 - Something specific provoke your comment? I must have really hit a nerve. Was it because I mocked Obama's communicating skills? Or called attention to the fact that he endorsed an act that offends most of America? Or that Obama seems to have a special affinity for Islam? You'll need to be more specific. I can indeed be an ass sometimes...but not, I think, for anything I've posted on this topic.
So - we don't allow Christians to build churches because the KKK professes to be Christian?
So - we should say Christians "acted stupidly" because the KKK did?
How can this not be a matter of freedom of religion?
Do you guys think that only applies to Christians?
Do you really think protecting people's rights is up to popular vote? The people that need to be protected are the ones in the minority because they are the ones the majority is trying to silence.
Some day you guys might be in the minority & you might want your rights protected from an overzealous majority.
It might be wise to suupport this right.
"Props"?
He's speaking to a roomfull of terrorists. What else is he supposed to say? He said what a gutless piece of trash would say.
I'm sure you are satisfied.
351 - Let's use a more apt comparison. Say the Westboro Baptist Church -- the ones who protest at military funerals -- wanted to build a church at Arlington Cemetery. (If the property was available, etc.) They might have the legal right to do so, but there would be a scream of outrage from Americans because of the insult inherent in their act. So public outrage over the mosque at Ground Zero has more to do with the disrespect shown the victims, and less to do with the specific religion, than the "suddenly I'm a defender of freedom of religion" proclaimers portray.
(by the way, when this mosque is built -- as I have no doubt it will be -- I wish someone would build a combination liquor store, strip club, gay bar and barbecue joint right next door.)
Good analogy, Wordkyle. What do you people NOT GET about such an insult to injury? If Muslims want to be peaceful, then they need NOT pour salt into the wound...a wound that will never heal anyway. It is total insanity or insensitivity (or both) for Muslims to consider putting a mosque there. HOW DARE THEY!! Holy War cometh!!!!!
I hope when Westboro, or First United Methodist in Decatur or First Baptist Church decide they want to built a new recreation mega-church in wise county all the people in NYC have a say if they want it or not. This is private property, in NYC. We do not have a say. And furthermore since when does Wise County have a concern about some Yankees, and their buildings going up. Last I heard they were elitist, socialist, liberals that live up there in NYC. It's not your tax dollars, it is not a training ground, it is not a about you.
Historically, Muslims are known to build mosques in places of reverence in the countries they've conquered.
It's a symbol of their conquest.
Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"
954 - To say that Ground Zero and how it is treated is "only a local matter" misses the point of the site.
You people are so hurtful and hateful. I hope you don't call yourselves Christians, it would be a disgrace to the name. The mosque is 5 blocks away, big deal. Freaking out over this is like freaking out over a picture of Muhammad, except even smaller of a deal. As of when did we let our personal biases stop people from protecting our rights? Oh, yeah, we did that to blacks and Native
Americans, and not too long ago.
What moral destitute. I wonder if the majority of posters here realize that they aren't the only ones in the world. What ever happened to forgive and forget?
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Matthew 6:14-15
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Matthew 18:21-22
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Luke 6:37
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Mark 11:25
In the same amendment that gives you people the right to criticize the president (and say what you think about other religions) is the same amendment that gives them the right to build a place of worship where legal. If you trespass on this amendment in one way, you are opening the door for it to be trespassed upon in another.
I'm confused. So conservatives want the government to get out of health care and stuff, but they want to give it more power and allow it to step in and invade a certain group's religious rights?
10:11 -
The first time a version of these words appeared was in an Oklahoma paper in 1951. THe so-called Fatal sequence wasn't in there.
BTW Tytler was attributed as the author, not Tyler, and he lived in the 1700's.
To see where the words came from and how they have been used since 1951 go here;
http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html
The author of the paper on that link concludes:
"Perhaps the words speak the truth of democratic governments; or perhaps they do not. But either way, attributing the words to a scholar who never spoke them is to lend to them an authority and reliability that they do not deserve. Quotations should not be given fictitious attributions merely to lend credence to the messages they impart. To do so is to favor persuasiveness over accuracy, and to sacrifice truth for the sake of image."
Building a mosque next to Ground Zero is insensitive. Ground Zero is hallowed ground where thousands of Americans were murdered under the name of radical Islam.
In America, we can't build anything we want anywhere we want. When Muslims insist they have the right, without sensitivity to how we value Ground Zero by promising "never to forget", they fail to reach out to the families of those killed on 9/11.
They should be asked why not build it somewhere else?
Anon 9:54 your a dumbass!!!!!!!!!! If it's anything to do with AMERICA it's ALL about us.Try to stay with us here,it's not about law,it's about RESPECT you tard.
If the country feels so strong about the mosque, why doesn't someone build a much larger Baptist Church right beside it?
1:28
Excellent point. If we could magically make this a true Christian nation overnight, which denomination would we use...there's huge differences.
8:19 - This proposed mosque had to go through zoning and building codes to get approval - just as any other building would. And all of you please note that the 9/11 attack killed many non-Americans as well including many Muslims in the towers. I'm impressed by the number of responses that recognize that the law applies to all - not just the favored.
Thanks, 2:16, for bringing some enlightenment to some of our forgetful Christians.
Will all the supporters of the Mosque at ground zero join in the celebration of stabbing a dagger in the heart of the infidel once the Mosque is opened? Will you break bread with Muslims on 9/11 to support this joyous occasion?
I believe it is time we had a little freedom from religion, not freedom of religion! Give me a candidate who will not allow religion to shape his/her decision making and they will have my vote!
I agree with 8:19 - it is insensitive.
It is ALSO insensitive to get forwards from Christians who hate Muslims. Many of these mailings are just plain hateful and radical.
Some of these folks are every bit as dangerous as those they so violently oppose.
"Anon 9:54 your a dumbass!!!!!!!!!!"
Posts like these never fail to amuse me.
There should be a minimum education requirement to have an internet connection.
It is NOT at ground zero....and muslims died in the WTC 9/11/01 attack, not just christians...and not just Americans. This is the land of the free. Read this article for intelligent thoughts on this issue. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS226274721320100816
They are building a community cneter. It will have meeting rooms, a swimming pool, educational facilities, and a place for prayer and worship. Calling it a mosque is like calling a hospital a church because it has a chapel.
Funny how conservatives who profess a love for the constitution and are always accusing liberals of destroying it, are the ones who want to ignore it as in this case, or want to change it as in the 14th.
Do Sharks like Dark Meat?
Building the mosque is a symbolic act of conquest. Muslims are at war against us. We're giving up because a portion of us do not have the will to fight. Obama is sympathetic to the muslims.
All simple sentences for you out there prone to legal logic.
As 1/2 white I guess he can float a little.
Thomas Jefferson owned a Koran that was actually used to swear in a U.S. Congressman sometime in the last several years (forget his name at the moment). Guess this founding father didn't really understand what the founding fathers meant by this freedom of religion thing.
a) All Muslims are NOT terrorists; to judge them all the same is just ridiculous, and they have the same right to worship as do Christians
b)everyone needs to get over 9-11.
It's over and done, so MOVE ON, already.
Yes, because every time a mosque is built it is an act of conquest. It isn't to worship, and the community center isn't for socializing. Not.
A portion of us are clearly too willing to fight. Obama should be sympathetic to all groups when it comes to rights such as religion, speech, etc. Maybe you are bias against them? Do you even know one personally? Is he/she a terrorist? Probably not.
1246, 1057, 901, 221, et al - There hasn't been a call for government to bypass the Constitution and outlaw the mosque. (1057 - Al Jazeera calls it a "mosque", so that's good enough for me.) What opponents to the mosque are expressing is their outrage at the insensitivity and provocation inherent in the construction of such a tribute to Islam. Even moderate Muslims agree with that point.
1019 - The building at the site for the mosque was damaged by debris from one of the jets that hit the WTC. If that's not Ground Zero, it's pretty darn close.
10:19..It does not matter if it is exactly at ground zero or not, it will clearly become a symbol to all radical Muslims of their 9/11 "victory" against the infidel. This has nothing to do with the legality of the matter, they clearly have the legal right, conservatives are not arguing this. This is about the motives behind the location; if they were sincere in their so called motives to build this "Community Center" then they would obviously choose another location. I support their legal/constitutional right to build it near ground zero but this will only reopen the wounds of 9/11 for many and further damage relations between peaceful Muslims and the rest of America. We were all impacted by 9/11, however the onus is on the Muslim-American community to stop this because it is simply being done in poor taste to put it mildly.
I do find it funny how liberals will take a hard line when the law supports their side, like how they have basically made this issue a legal argument only, but will ask for the law to simply look the other way on issues where the law does not support them, like the Black Panther voting intimidation case. According to Anthony B. Bradley's (Liberating Black Theology: the Bible and the Black Experience in America") idea that "victimology" of blacks should give the Black Panthers a pass in that case, shouldn't 9/11 victims be afforded the same courtesy and have government step in to stop the building of this Muslim "community center" at its currently planned location. Liberals are the one's who seem to want it both ways. 10:57...Nice try in your attempts to pigeon hole conservatives on constitutional matters, I think the record stands for itself when it comes to liberals destroying/trying to destroy constitutional amendments!
The US has lost the war, its freedom, and control of its destiny.
WK - express all the outrage you wish. Ain't gonna do a damn bit of good. Frankly, I'm not sure why you and other armchair politicos on this blog really give a sh*t about this mosque anyway. You're not a resident of New York City/state, probably didn't know anyone who perished in the world trade towers and will probably never actually to see the mosque or world trade center memorial anyway.
There are plenty of churches throughout the world built within blocks (feet!) of sites of where some pretty horrific events took place in the name of Christianity. I don't see you or any of your right-wing bat-sh*t conservative, republikan ilk complaining about that.
again, 9/1 happened, it's OVER. Time to move on and forget about it...geez
2:23 Thank you Mojojihadalmondjoy.
Double fake Archie Bunker
3:05...No coherent point there just a bunch of name calling. Never seen anything in WK's posts about condoning horrific acts by Christians or anyone for that matter. Same ol' song and dance, you are a liberal just because your cool college prof. was and you wanted to be just like him/her.
Don't know about WK but I have already been to ground zero twice, plan to go back in December on my yearly New York trip...and I am from right here in WC...imagine that, WC guy that loves NYC! Now you really hate me!
3:31...Give it a rest, it was an act of terror that changed our world, despite you side of it you cannot forget something this historically relevant. By the way, building a "Community Center" near such a place does not exactly help people forgive and forget!
Good points 3:05. Expect a comeback from WK, all wrapped up nicely in his extensive research.
Haha so what would you rather have, a memorial so we can remember every time we see it that people died? Why not move on and try not to be so hateful? I'm sure that the victims of 9/11 wouldn't want us to mourn over them for years and years, they would want us to live happily.
No, WordKyle has not condoned those acts committed by Christians, but to ignore them yet point out those by Muslims is barely different.
And to attack a person and not the issue, such as "you are only a liberal because..." is a fallacy and lacks backing logic.
Devil,
If you would read my link you would find I referred to 2 conservatives....all Bush diplomats that feel opposing the building of this community center is against the American way of freedom and if you own a plot of land two NYC blocks away from where an event occurred you have the right to build it if you follow local laws and ordinances.
I know....I know.....they have the right but you feel it is morally not right and are AFRAID they are going to train terrorist, have parades to celebrate the deaths of 9/11 victims and put a posters of people jumping of the WTC towers in their window......actually there are dudes already at the corner of where the Muslim community center wants to be built that are trying to sell those....non-muslim American.
3:05 "points" were pointless and provocative. You kiss your mommy with that mouth?
305 - Outrage can influence the conversation, which is important. The mosque matters because it shows how our system and overabundance of political correctness (read weakness) can be exploited to harm us. (Remember the six imams?) It's called the camel's nose. Face it -- Leftists, Liberals and Democrats have expressed faux "outrage" at a slew of things over the last five decades. The outrage is finally pointed in the other direction, and the Left doesn't seem to like it.
Hey 1:36, why don't you ask the folks in Fort Hood if they know Muslim and is he/she a terrorist??? Oh...wait, there was a nutcase (seemingly normal to all) amongst them all there and many paid with their life because they accepted "not all Muslims are bad." Sheeeeeeeesh.... many of you people on here are BLIND AS BATS and can't see the storm right in front of you.
Kudos to 1:36 2:19, 2:21, 3:05,
443/305 - First, list a few of the sites for Christian churches where atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity within the last two hundred years.
As for what "might" happen in the mosque, simply google "Dar Al-Hijrah" and see how terrorists can be recruited, connected and trained in a mosque. Osama bin Laden doesn't issue a fatwa in the name of Billy Graham.
As for Mr. "Move On," I still remember the images of Palestinians dancing in the streets when they heard about the 9/11 attacks. That kind of thing sticks with you.
From all I have read here so far it looks like the 911 terrorist accomplished just what they set out to do. I'm sure they enjoy reading how divided America has become. United we stand, divided we fall. God the Father in Heaven is in control, are you ready?
1:36 2:19, 2:21, 3:05 will disappear when the shootin' starts. Big mouths, small minds, no heart.
I personally support the right of anyone to build on private land as long as the codes are followed. Religions deserve extra consideration because of their special place in the constitution. That doesn't take away the rights of private citizens to voice their concern and try to stop this building.
Have to make a comment on WK, and I hope he doesn't take offense. I don't read his comments. They are to wordy and I get bored before the end of the first sentence. I know I will disagree with him anyway.
Brother of Daryl
4:43... I would actually prefer we just rebuilt the twin towers to spec. Support your comments with facts or at least a well formed opinion and I will assume you are liberal for intellectually honest reasons.
4:43... I never said it was morally wrong, I said it was in bad taste and that peaceful, tolerant Muslims should put a stop to it because the onus is on them to prove to all Americans of any religion that they can be tolerant as well. Remember that this is America and most Muslim nations are not at all tolerant of non-Muslims, we are extending this freedom to those who would not reciprocate given a we were in their home country. As for what they do in this "community center" that remains to be seen!
Wow, it seems like everyone here approves of violence. "When the shootin' starts?" What? Do you want to fight and kill people? I have no intention to ever intentionally harm another person. Heart doesn't consist of being violent, but doing what is right.
Just look at the Crusades, Christians went over there, killed Muslims, and built churches. This made them mad and they fought back, what a shock. It's almost like we went over there (Desert Storm, etc.), they got mad, and they strike back. 9/11 wasn't even the first terrorist attack or attack on "American soil" recently. Before that, there had been a bomb placed in the towers, and a ship was bombed.
Even Christians can be terrorists: In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed 7 people, including 3 doctors, 2 clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort. All these murders were committed by "Christians." Also, the KKK considers themselves Christians, and there is not near enough room to put down the acts they have done in the name of their religion. Father-of-three Mohammad Parvaiz, 41, was beaten to death by a white Christian gang near Huddersfield recently. February 23, 2006:
ONITSHA, Nigeria, Christian mobs in this southern city attacked Muslim motorists and traders Wednesday, leaving more than 30 people dead, according to witnesses, as religious riots sparked by the publishing of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad continued into a fifth day in Nigeria. Nationwide, the death toll reached at least 80. Local churches continued to spawn after and near many of these happenings. You can't say these are fringe people and the Islamic terrorists aren't.
Someone attacked the saying "not all Muslims are bad" and used an example of one person. By that logic, I can say any group is bad and give an example of one person who did something bad to prove it.
And WordKyle, you don't have the capacity to move on because some people celebrated the attacks? That's shallow. We had people cheer at the hanging of Saddam, that is rather twisted as well. Yes, there is a large number difference in deaths, but what happened to being the bigger person? If you can't move on from that then it's your own loss, disappointing, nonetheless, that you cannot forgive.
So what if they have bad taste about this situation, are you going to stoop to their level and go crazy about it, calling names, saying they shouldn't be allowed to, and attack the president for defending the 1st Amendment?
So we go over with our official military and kill literally over 100,000 civilians and say they were the ones that committed the worse act?
Islamic nations/peoples had the first university, invented the toothbrush, had a flying machine in the 9th century (way before da Vinci), invented coffee, huge contributions to math (sch as exponents, sine, co-sine, tangent, trigonometry, etc.), the crank, Arabic numerals (which are 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 that we use today), optics, knew the Earth was round in the 9th century, and tons of other things. You people bash them just like people lined up to attack the first kids that desegregated a school.
Haha, it's funny that people got off topic so fast. The issue is the constitutionality, the original blog post said: "For those that honor the Constitution's "Freedom of Religion" amendment, can you really disagree with that?" The fact that we cannot deny Muslims this right has been established, calm down and stop hating so much.
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. - Jesus in John 15:12
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs. – Proverbs 10:12
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. Jesus in John 3:15
Do not hate your neighbor or any other person in your heart.
-Leviticus 19:17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. On the contrary: If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:17-21
107 - All good quotes from the Bible. Here's one from another source: "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." William Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice i. iii. 93]
1232 - Please provide a source for your numbers. How many of that 100,000 were killed by Islamic terrorist bombs?
1224 - If this were a resolved issue, I would agree with "moving on." However, your definition seems to mean ignoring the very real threat to our country, represented by the Palestinian glee at the deaths of thousands of American noncombatants. That sentiments still exists today, yet seems to be a nonissue to the Left.
Darrel - If you read this, then more power to you. I'm not offended if you ignore my posts. I present a particular point of view, and I use the amount of language I feel necessary to support my points. (Your point, however, is well taken.) Some people read for information but never comment -- I'm talking to them.
12:32, 12:48, 12:55 Touche.
Good points, nicely said.
12:24 - thank you for your post. Very well stated and so true.
And thank you for stating your views and NOT offending other poster's intelligence by giving them/us places to go to read proof of your comments. Your post was obviously written from an informed viewpoint.
Has Bin Laden been brought to trial for executing the terrorists acts in NYC, Washington DC and a plan to attack our Capitol building? Have the four terrorists been brought to trial yet? No. Justice is the first step in healing.
Obama does not get it or he would focus on justice for all the families of those lost at Ground Zero, the Pentagon and in a field in PA.
As Americans we should never forget the day our country was under attack by radical Islam. Thousands of our young soldiers have died to make sure we are never attacked again. Liberty and our freedom is under attack from evil. Evil wins when good men do nothing.
Obama failed when he did not address the moral issue of how sacred the ground is at Ground Zero or justice for the families.
I hope you Mosque building supporters will realize it was you and your liberal kind that helped to destroy America with your 'love all' attitudes when America no longer enjoys her freedoms because she is ruled by socialist extremists who kill "infidels".
Just what do you people think America would be today if during WWII, we took that 'love all' attitude...... didn't fight. Do a little research and realize there would be no English speaking American today!
Wake up!
Barry Green, you are not American.
You are wrong.
Obammy would have helped himself if he had spoke about the sacred ground. I bet if it will get that muslim 1/2 nigger one more vote in 2012 I bet he will change his tune by then.
I've seen a couple of these things floatin around in the pool at my house.
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqwarpix.html
Bin Laden has been dead for years. He needed dialysis and there have been reports of his death lol.
As John Oliver on the Daily Show (Jon Stewart) says....A Catholic Church can build a church next to a playground.....but SHOULD they!!!
6:49 I totally disagree with you. As a PERSON, I see no need at all to continue to live in the past and dredge up old news. So people died on 9/11. People die every day. Their families should move on and get on with life, as should the rest of the world. That was their day to die...we will all have one. That doesn't mean their death meant any more to me than someone who died yesterday in a car crash. Dead is dead. Live moves on. To blame the many for the action of a few is utterly ridiculous. Our soldiers KILL people every day and I don't see much difference. Their families grieve just as those killed in 9/11 do and their lives are no less precious.
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/11/03/un_nearly_100000_flee_iraq_monthly/ There's a nice piece of information.
Here are some of the links that have over 100,000 civilian deaths. There weren't car bombings like there are now before we went over there.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2006/11/11/2003335773
http://web.mit.edu/CIS/pdf/Human_Cost_of_War.pdf
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/14/3839/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2238250,00.html
I'm shocked that someone would relate Bible verses about peace to the devil using them, and from Shakespeare at that.
Sentiments do not mean actions. If they did, then half of the people on this board would be fighting a holy war against Islam. Just because some people don't like us, or even hate us, does not justify action towards them.
Clearly, when a large portion of the populace is against it, Obama had nothing to gain by saying what he said, at least voting numbers-wise.
12:48...I do not recall anyone on here deriding Islamic contributions to modern society, those contributions are important and historically relevant, just not relevant to the conversation about building a "Community Center" near ground zero. If anything it shows Islamic society has been hijacked to a degree by radicals and thus their contribution to the world today has waned.
12:24...Yes, you are correct, Christians, or people of any religion for that matter can and will be terrorists. Yes, Christians killed Muslims and built churches during the Crusades, so are you suggesting that two wrongs make a right? Should the near Ground zero Mosques be allowed because of this historical precedent? Should we turn the USS Cole into a Muslim shrine? How can you forgive an enemy that has promised to continue attacking. I do not harbor hatred for Muslims in general, many are peaceful, but a great many are not...do not forget that, and it is not just Christians that they hate.
Also, it is nice to know that you would never fight back if anyone ever attacked you for any reason. How does your family feel about that, safe at night?
1:50 Apparently it's ok with some of the bloggers for killing of innocents to occur, as long it's US doing the killing! What a stupid and assinine double standard. It's no more right for us to kill those people than it is for them to run a plane into the towers. Both are equally murderous and WRONG. Makes me ashamed to be a U.S. citizen.
150 - Your original claim was that the American military had killed "literally" over 100,000 civilians. The sources you cited verified the number of deaths but not the cause. The Americans went to great pains to try to avoid civilian casualties. However, according to Human Rights Watch, the insurgents actually targeted civilians: "The groups that are most responsible for the abuse, namely al-Qaeda in Iraq and its allies, Ansar al-Sunna and the Islamic State of Iraq, have all targeted civilians for abductions and executions. The first two groups have repeatedly boasted about massive car bombs and suicide bombs in mosques, markets, bus stations and other civilian areas."
There is no moral equivalence between the American military and Islamic terrorists.
The devil, you had good points until the end when you attacked personally, which is a fallacy. Learn not to do personal attacks and you will become more effective when arguing.
1:44 I feel sorry for your family if you really, really think they would not deserve justice if they were murdered in a terrorists attack. Life taken by evil is harder to accept than from accident or natural causes.
We will never forget 9/11. Those quilty should be brought to justice and stand trial for their evil deeds. Then healing can begin.
3:14, you certainly don't have to remain a US citizen. I'm sure you could move your little as* out of here tomorrow. Please do.
Actually, the military is just as immoral as the terrorists:
http://www.fightbacknews.org/2010/4/6/us-military-covered-murders-afghan-civilians-investigation-shows
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/206332-Investigation-shows-US-military-covered-up-execution-of-pregnant-women-in-Afghanistan
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/20/eveningnews/main6504056.shtml
http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/whistleblower-wikileaks-video-u-s-military-murders-12-including-two-reuters-journalists/
http://rwor.org/a/053/iraqrape-en.html
Why leave the country, even if there are things we don't like, when we can change it?
Can someone cite a legal cause to prevent the building of the Muslim Center/Mosque in the general vicinity of "ground zero"? With facts? wordkyle? Anyone? And if so, would you like the same standards applied to your own chosen house of worship? Either you support the first amendment.....etc.
7:43 Only moral cowards would think our military is as evil as the radical Islamic terrorists who attacked our country on 9/11. Obama is a moral coward by speaking to religious tolarance and religious freedom knowing Ground Zero is sacred ground and how the majority of Americans think about the evil act on 9/11.
The mosque, to be built two blocks from ground zero, will be an American Mecca where Muslims will come to visit from all over the world. Muslims have a mosque to go to pray already in Manhatten.
Religous tolerance is not a one way street. How many Chrisitan churches are allowed in Mecca? How many Christian churches are locations where wars are planned or storage for guns?
Weakness and moral cowardness sends the message to our enemies that we will not fight back when attacked. Radical Islamic terrorists are killing Chritians and Jews all over the world. We must elect a leader who has the moral character and love for our country who will protect us, not surrender to the evil doers.
1155 - Go back and read what I've posted previously in this thread about constitutionality. Your point has been addressed.
Haha 7:00, you set up a standard which attacks your opponent, therefore negating your statement. Personal attacks and false standards are fallacious.
If you say 9/11 is a sacred ground then you have to remember who made it that way - the people who attacked it. Do you really want to give them the power to make certain areas holy?
You bring up Mecca, and by doing so compare it to America. Do you really want this country to have the religious tolerance of a Middle-Eastern country?
We fought back, we sent our military into two Islamic countries, that point is invalid. Evildoers is one word, but spelling errors are common.
This is so far enough down the page to be unnoticed. Probably a safe place to post. As usual these are my opinions, no facts killed. I am a liberal based of the definitions, liberal means open to change and conservative means stay in the same rut.
I do not believe there is a constitutional right to build a mosque on that NY location. I do believe there is a constitutional right of freedom from government interference.
Larry's better brother.
Wordkyle:
I read all your comments. No, you didn't answer my question. I understand that you have a distaste for the building site; That alone is not enough to oppose it. Nor are quotes from William Shakespeare! Who is, after all, the foundation for our democracy. Where are the Constitutional objections? Either you didn't understand my question or you are willfully ignoring it.
127 - I have made it clear that I don't question the legality or the constitutionality of the building of the mosque. My posts, beginning with the very first one, have explained my position as moral and not legal. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. Wasted, apparently.
Let's look at it this way -- Why did the mosque planners choose this site? During the early planning, someone must have surely mentioned that there might be a bit of a hubbub over building an Islamic center so near to where al Qaeda brought jihad to America. More than half of New Yorkers oppose the mosque's site. If we assume that the planners are not stupid people, then what could be their purpose for insisting on that particular site for a mosque? Especially now, when there is support for giving them incentives to move it to a different location? Knowing that it offends so many people, why are they so insistent?
You cannot claim to know the minds of other people, WordKyle, don't get that haughty. You are acting like a conspiracy theorist. Some Christians have pushed for things, such as a moment of prayer in school, which had to be changed to a moment of silence because it offended atheists. That was around entire states, not just one city. Often, they try to teach creationism, which offends many people as well. Don't strawman my argument like you try to do to some.
And anyway, from a "moral" standpoint how do these play in:
"If we assume that the planners are not stupid people, then what could be their purpose for insisting on that particular site for a mosque?"
Making this statement gives the reader that it takes an assumption that they are not stupid. You are indirectly attacking the builders, yet the Imam behind it has actually lectured FBI agents on Islam because he is that moderate.
"More than half of New Yorkers oppose the mosque's site."
Unless you want democracy (not the republican ideas that the US is based on) to override the 1st Amendment, than this doesn't even make sense in your argument.
"Knowing that it offends so many people, why are they so insistent?"
Your opinions are offensive to many people, yet you are insistent. Should we restrict your 1st Amendment rights? That isn't from a legal standpoint, but a moral and logical one.
356 - References to democracy, 1st Amendment, legality and constitutionality are non sequitirs. I have not cited any of those reasons for my opposition -- you've created a straw man yourself. (And aren't you saying that Christians changed things because others found them offensive? Is that not this situation in a nutshell?)
As for your last comment -- If a large percentage of the readers of this blog indicated that they found my comments offensive, then my continuing to comment would indicate my lack of sensitivity or caring about their feelings, correct? I would have another motive for posting than communication. The kicker is that I'm not a religious institution purporting to promote peace, understanding and tolerance.
You parried my question without answering it. (By the way, I was giving the builders credit for not being stupid. Was your remark contradicting that?) The question is: What is the motivation for building the mosque at this site? If the purpose is to promote peace, understanding, etc., then what reaction did these not-stupid people expect?
So morally I object to the mosque site because the 9/11 attacks were done in the name of Islam. Putting the mosque on the cite seems to celebrate the attacks. (The quote in my very first comment shows that perception is not restricted to Islamophobic white Americans.) The desire to put the mosque there indicates either 1) a complete lack of knowledge of the offensiveness; 2) a knowledge of, but lack of caring about the offensiveness; or 3) a wish to purposely give offense.
And me "haughty?" How common of you to think so.
You're "right on," Wordkyle. Folks keep pulling in the legal aspect and the Constitutionality problem. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE!!! The issue is "the principle of it." These peace loving Muslims evidently have no common sense. If they were truly peace loving they would move their mosque elsewhere without question. The mere fact they insist on builing it on/near/close/ by ground zero makes others (with common sense)realize that these "peace loving" Muslims are not what they preach themselves to be. These folks hide their attacks against us behind religion. THEY ARE OUR ENEMIES and are bent on the destruction of AMERICA and our freedoms!
"References to democracy, 1st Amendment, legality and constitutionality are non sequitirs (sic)."
Either you don't understand the term "non sequitur" or you have a perverse understanding of the relevance this particular issue has to the First Amendment. I'm bemused by those who beat the "Constitutional" drum....except when it doesn't suit their purpose. Then, of course, it is a non sequitur.
If I, or anyone else, were arguing against the legality or constitutionality of building the mosque, you would have a point. I'm not, so your references to those aspects have no meaning or connection to what I'm saying.
If your entire argument is "It's legal and constitutional," then my response is "uh-huh."
Lol I can't believe these people are still commenting on this, it doesn't really matter.
@12:31
"If I, or anyone else, were arguing against the legality or constitutionality of building the mosque, you would have a point. I'm not, so your references to those aspects have no meaning or connection to what I'm saying."
I specifically asked for legal arguments opposing the Muslim center. You failed to provide any. So, in other words, you admit that your argument is based entirely on subjective views of "morality" absent of any relevant understanding of the First Amendment.
1149 - Even more specifically, you are arguing a point that only you have brought up. The flawed premise of your question was that if someone were against the building of the mosque, he would be against the first amendment. Everyone else except you has grasped that opposition to the mosque is based on moral grounds. The Constitution has not been threatened a bit by that opposition. Every time you bring up the constitution argument, you are arguing it with yourself.
Is your real point that a person can only be against something if it is illegal?
10:56
"Is your real point that a person can only be against something if it is illegal?"
No, as I wrote earlier, I understand that you are against the building based on your subjective "moral" grounds. My point, wasted as it appears to be, is that you have no legal right to oppose it. Because of the First Amendment. In the Constitution. By all means, have the last word if you must, just try to make it more cogent.
1035 - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you misspoke and that you were not saying I am not allowed by law ("no legal right") to oppose the mosque's construction at Ground Zero. IF that is indeed your contention, then you need to go back and read the First Amendment again.
If on the other hand, you meant that there is no legal basis for opposing the mosque, you're quite right, or as I said many posts ago, "uh huh." As I have said repeatedly, no one has claimed the builders don't have the legal or Constitutional right to build the mosque. You are arguing against something that no one has said. It's as though you were denying the mosque builders are aliens from outer space. True perhaps, but irrelevant since no one has made the claim. I suspect that you have indulged in zealous defense of a rather trite point.
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